Smilax as vegetable?

[atash]

My quest for non-tropical flavoring ingredients has taken me to Sarsaparilla...though it turns out that some Sarsaparillas including the ones of commerce ARE tropical. I didn't know that until I looked it up--they tend to be species from Central America.

But I think the non-tropical versions tend to contain the same major constituents. Not absolutely positively 100% sure, since I find only vague references to their use as food.

However, I did notice one plant reviewer changed her negative appraisal of one of them, to positive, once she figured out it was edible, and "not just a horrid weed".

A lot of folks in their native habitat seem to utterly loath them. Words like "horrid" and "weed" used generously.

"If you can't beat 'em, eat 'em".

A few don't have thorns, which I think is one of the issues that cause them to be cursed (that, and being vigorous, adaptable, and twining). Some of them are short and more-or-less herbaceous.

Not surprisingly, those are the ones I've found seed for.

I wonder if people ever used Smilax as a florist green, or if that was a confusion with Asparagus. Some of the subtropical Asparagus from South Africa make nice greens.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone here knows about the possibility of using hardy Smilaxes as a flavoring ingredient, root vegetable, or jelly base. Seems to me that it might give some body to "root beer" that is closer to the original type.

Much obliged.

[khoomeizhi]

i've used the tender spring shoots (of a couple species) as a green vegetable, and that's all i have direct experience of.

my peterson's field guide to edible wild plants talks about extracting a red powder from the roots that can be used as a flour, a gelatin substitute, or 'diluted and sweetened for a cold drink' - but i've haven't tried. says the bullbrier (S. bona-nox) has the best (read: biggest) rootstock of the native varieties for such purposes.

[atash]

Thanks, Khoomeizhi. I did hear about using the shoots as a green vegetable, but it didn't even quite register because you hear that claim about a lot of plants that are not particularly palatable.

What did you think? Green vegetables that are easy to grow always welcome. Being perennial would make them available early in the year, when greens are sparse.

I'll try the ones I can get hold of and figure out what the variables are. Next trick is to figure out how to process the tuber and what it would be useful for. I am amazed at how many overlooked food resources I am discovering now that I am primed to be on the lookout for them.

One possible use would be as one of those rare vegetables that could be grown in part shade, though I am mostly interested in the root.

[MikeH]

www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Aralia+nudicaulis at www.morningskygreenery.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_88&products_id=2331&osCsid=3b09078bd794a35243d1b48be331d0b9

or

www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Smilax+rotundifolia

[atash]

Thanks, Mike, that explains why some websites make the puzzling claim that Sarsaparilla is "a member of the Ginseng family".

PFAF gives it a 4-star edibility rating. And it's another crop for partial shade.

[khoomeizhi]

Dec 26, 2011 16:05:11 GMT -5 atash said:

What did you think? Green vegetables that are easy to grow always welcome. Being perennial would make them available early in the year, when greens are sparse.

i liked them. they're available just after wild shoots like solomon's seal are ending...pretty mild flavored, not very high on the mucilaginous scale (the reason, to my taste, why many less popular wild greens are less popular)...i'd say they were a 3 or 4, where 1 is totally non-slimy and 10 is totally slimy. acceptable for the american palette, i'd say.

[stevil]

Smilax aspera is one of the most commonly used traditional wild gathered plants in the Mediterranean countries, used like its cousin asparagus (shoots). I've never heard of the roots being used of this species. However, in Native American Ethnobotany, it is only the tuberous roots (and fruit) of Smilax spp which are noted as used by native peoples, not the shoots. However, that doesn't mean that they weren't used. Smilax aspera isn't hardy here, although I have a small pot grown plant. I've unsuccessfully tried to germinate North American species. If anyone has access to seed of North American spp, particularly from colder areas I'd be keen to trade/buy - seed as plants are difficult to get hold of...

[atash]

Thanks for the assessment, khoomeizhi. I appreciate that.

Stevil, it was apparently the fact that the European native was already in use that one of the neotropical species got the attention of the Spanish. This is hearsay but numerous websites (doubtlessly quoting from upstream) claim that it was in demand as a remedy for Syphilis. That might be true (that this was the purpose, not that it actually worked!) whereas I found large numbers of websites selling it for that very purpose!!

Wood-N-Stake, good news, it did NOT make the list!

agr.wa.gov/PlantsInsects/NurseryInspection/docs/BrochureProhibitedPlants.pdf

The list is probably prepared from other states' lists, and more specifically, plants people have complained about. I notice a lot of common weeds are not on the list, some plants are on the list that it's too late to do anything about, and some don't stand a snowflake's chance in hell of becoming entrenched this far north and probably got on the list for being weeds in the sunbelt.

>>Never heard of it being edible<<

There seem to be a number of plants that are considered weeds in the southern states, that would be considered food elsewhere. Plain old kudzu for example. Young leaves are a fairly choice green, and if you can find a tuberous root (which might be difficult), it's full of starch (you can find it in Asian grocers labeled "kuzu"). And the fiber is cordage. There's a reason they're weedy in the southern states and not in their native Asia. Humans are their predator, and not doing their job keeping it in line, LOL!

Anyway, the Spanish not surprisingly utilized a tropical species but reputedly the hardier ones contain the same aromatic and gelatinous substances that flavor "root beer" and give it body.

"Root beer" used to be Sarsaparilla root--hence the "root" in the name--and/or either Sassafras twigs or root. You make a tea-like infusion, add some sugar and yeast, and ferment it a few days. That was the original "root beer". It could have been one, the other, or a combination. Sassifras was probably more common further north, though some Smilaxes range surprisingly far north, into Canada.

Then in 1960 Sassifras got banned for containing safrole, which some government agency decided was carcinogenic--though how much so is in dispute. Soda manufacturers (who had already switched from a natural fermentation process to a carbon-dioxide charging process) switched to (artificial) wintergreen flavor, but kept the original deep brown color of Sassifras infusion (via artificial coloring).

By that time I think making home-made "root beer" had long gone out of fashion anyway, so people collectively forgot about the "root" in "root beer". It became soda pop instead of a fermented beverage (very little alcohol, maybe 1/2-1% or so).

My intention is to use a SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony Of Bacteria and Yeast) rather than using store-bought yeast.

There are many references to making a jelly or gelatinous matrix out of an extract of the roots. I have also seen references to eating the roots like a potato (bigger species apparently work better for that). However, no details. Sounds like trial-and-error to discover what someone was doing with it a long time ago, that is probably still passalong wisdom that few people have direct experience of anymore.

The possibility of eating young shoots as a green extends its potential usefulness.

I'm aware of the smell of the blossoms, though numerous informants claim "it's not that bad".

Speaking of Sassifras, apparently that too is a rather useful but underutilized resource anymore. It's illegal to sell Sassifras extract (unless the safrole is removed, which would seem to defeat the purpose), but you can utilize it yourself, plus the young leaves useful too as a green, or a flavoring ingredient.

[MikeH]

Dec 28, 2011 19:52:45 GMT -5 atash said:

My intention is to use a SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony Of Bacteria and Yeast) rather than using store-bought yeast.

OK, now you have my undivided attention. How are you going to do this? What are you going to use as a starter to get the fermentation going?

Regards,
Mike

[khoomeizhi]

Dec 28, 2011 20:07:22 GMT -5 MikeH said:

Dec 28, 2011 19:52:45 GMT -5 atash said:

My intention is to use a SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony Of Bacteria and Yeast) rather than using store-bought yeast.

OK, now you have my undivided attention. How are you going to do this? What are you going to use as a starter to get the fermentation going?

i've had pretty good luck with culturing the yeast, etc off wild grapes, blueberries, gooseberries, anything that gets that bluish bloomy skin. lots of wild yeasts on there. most regular store-bought ginger can work, too; grated, plus sugar, in a cup of water, with more ginger and sugar every couple days...by the fourth day at least, it'll be bubbling well. faster if you threw in a couple wild grapes. ooh, persimmons are good for that, too. my wife makes ginger beer with the stuff (fermented soft-drink style), i tend to just make wine.

atash, curious what your answer to this question is, too. been playing with wild fermentation a fair amount lately and wanted to chime back in.

[atash]

I could send around some SCOBYs. Not sure about you though, Mike, international border. Maybe some dried Tibicos.

Wood-N-Stake, gosh, that's mighty neighborly of you. I'd better grow it in a pot until I can determine whether it is likely to get out of hand or not. I don't want to go down in the history books as the guy who introduced an apparently widely-cursed plant.

I need at least one boy and one girl to get seed.

S. rotundifolia is widely-described as being edible and useful (if hated), whereas I can't find a single reference to S. lasioneura as ever being eaten. However, I will try S. lasioneura as a backup if I think S. rotundifolia is too dangerous, and see if it can be used the same ways. S. lasioneura is spineless. I have read several accounts of people being seriously injured by the thorns on S. rotundifolia.

Here's a pic of what looks to me like a rhizome:

davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/179421/

If I had time I would love to culture some wild yeast off fruit skin for bread. My guess is it would give an interesting flavor, not to mention make me less dependent on buying yeast from the store, not that it breaks me, but I'd just like to know how to do it.

That said, I'm using a SCOBY that I bought. I don't know how SCOBYs form--I think you have to serendipitously find one. I have several, including Tibicos, "Ginger Beer Plant", and Kombucha.

Here is a description (courtesy wikipedia) of the "Ginger Beer Plant":

Ginger beer plant (GBP) is not what is usually considered a plant, but a composite organism consisting of a fungus, the yeast Saccharomyces florentinus (formerly Saccharomyces pyriformis), and the bacterium Lactobacillus hilgardii (formerly Brevibacterium vermiforme),[6][7] which form a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast (SCOBY). It forms a gelatinous substance that allows it to be easily transferred from one fermenting substrate to the next, much like kefir grains, kombucha, and tibicos.

The idea is you never run out as long as you keep it alive. The gelatinous "grains" are easily transferred, shared, and multiplied.

You culture them in some sugar-water for a while, then add more sugar, some ginger, and bottle it up in a flip-top bottle.

This is what "ginger ale" was before it was commercialized into an artificial soda. Despite being called "ale" the alcohol content is modest and barely noticeable--whereas Kombucha is definitely a bit boozey.

Despite being of apparently British origins it died out there, but was re-introduced from a German culture bank (who'd a thought someone has a repository of useful bacteria and yeasts....).

The SCOBYs of "Ginger Beer Plant" look like grains of overcooked rice. They sit in the bottom of your big jar and do their thing. Some bacteria and yeast break away free (that might be partially how they reproduce), so that when you pour the filtered liquid into the bottles, and seal the bottles, the loose yeast continue fermenting and build up carbon dioxide pressure, effectively carbonating it.

I agree the type of yeast will make a difference in the flavor. I do not notice any yeasty smell; these particular species are probably pretty mellow. Not particularly active, either, except the Kombucha which is pretty volatile. The Kombucha seems to brew the fastest. They're all temperature dependent anyway. The Tibicos is pretty mellow but grows the fastest.

Kombucha is traditionally fed sugar and tea. "Ginger Beer Plant" (not my idea of a name; it's not a plant) traditionally fed sugar and ginger, but it could equally make a slightly acidic "root beer". People use Tibicos for a variety of drinks.

The Lactobacillis all produce lactic acid, so the fermented beverages come out acidic. Ideally you get them to a nice balance of mildly sweet and mildly sour, along with whatever infusions you have mixed them with when bottling. If you let them go too long, they produce lactic-acid "vinegar", which is actually itself surprisingly useful. You can make salad dressing out of it, or use it as an environmentally friendly household cleaner. Hmm, you could probably also use a weaker solution to culture sourdough bread.

[blueadzuki]

Dec 28, 2011 19:52:45 GMT -5 atash said:

Thanks for the assessment, khoomeizhi. I appreciate that.

Speaking of Sassifras, apparently that too is a rather useful but underutilized resource anymore. It's illegal to sell Sassifras extract (unless the safrole is removed, which would seem to defeat the purpose), but you can utilize it yourself, plus the young leaves useful too as a green, or a flavoring ingredient.

The mature leaves have thier uses too. Pulveriized they make the green dust known as "file powder" (there's supposed to be an accent on the "e") often uses to flavor and thicken in Cajun cusine (if you ever wondered what "file gumbo" was, that is it.)

Our property used to have quite a few sasafrasses on it, until my dad removed them all (it's considered a weedy tree around here) There is still a decent sized one out by the opening of the manor, but that one is on village property which around here translates out to "try and do anything like dig around the bottom and get you ass thrown in jail or a bankrupting fine" (and "the opening of the manor" translates out to "right on the edge of the highway, with 10,000 witnesses per hour and near constant police viewing, since they have to travel along it to get anywhere.) I've also heard tell that, if you are lucky enough to get the fruit off your sasafrass (they look like little black olives in bright red cup like caps on long stems) and add that to your rootbeer extract, it deepens the flavor a lot (the fruit is quite oily (sorta like an avocado (which is also in the laurel family)) so I can easily believe it.
we actually tried to make root beer the "old fashioned" way (yeast fermentation, sassafrass root tea base) once when I was in summer camp. The tea concept failed (we found some sassafrasses, but it quicky became obvios that a dozen or so urban and suburban kids and one counselor did not have the physical strength to dig up a mature tree tree and/or chop off any of it's roots in the space of 20 minutes (the whole preperation process time the camp had alotted for the module was only about 2 hours, the same as all other afternoon activites.) The yeast worked fine, at least initially (though I who even at the 12 or so I was at the time knew a bit of science, was a little uneasy that the conselor assigned to lead us apparently was not aware that yeast makes alcohol). Two weeks later the bottles were declared ready. tecnically each module member was allotted a bottle of his or her own, but most of us elected to take small tastes initially so that those who liked it would have a bottle to take home at the end of the term (it also allowed us to get a taste of both the root beer we made and the birch beer the other group had made) I liked the root beer (I was in the minority here, it had come out too strong for most of the crowd) so come the end of term I went to get my bottle for home, only to be informed they had also not bothered to heat shock the bottled when they decided they were ready (to kill the living yeast that was still in them) and the bottles had all exploded. At least, that it what they told me (now I wonder if the alcohol content had gotten so high it was no longer permissable to dole the stuff out to kids. Could be both, actually)
And finally, while I have never done it myself, I have heard and would imagine it so that, if you have a good grove of it, you could probably make a decent root beer analog from spicebrush.

[atash]

Want some Johnson grass rhizomes, seeds? I have plenty of that as well ;-)

So do we. It's already quite common here, and that one IS on the banned list!

I'm still checking on the thornless species of Smilax to see if they can be used same way. Might keep me out of trouble. Supposedly they are all similar and closely-related, so maybe I can find one that is equally useful but less formidable.

Blue Adzuki, that's an interesting story; thanks for sharing it.

Several folks I know were talking about "file" recently; thank you for filling in the details regarding what it is.

You can use small branches instead of roots. Brew them like tea (might have to cook longer). They both contain the key ingredient (safrole).

It might be weedy but sounds as if it's useful too. It's not native here (I think maybe it USED to be--along with Pecans and a few others--before the Ice Ages wiped them out), but we have rather a lot of exotic trees. I bet there is at least one locally.

I've got Spicebush! Both the eastern and western species. I heard about using the bark as a substitute for cinnamon, so I invested in a couple specimens. I have a project to investigate substitutes for exotic ingredients--things people in temperate climates could grow themselves.

Still looking for some rare (on this continent) items like Sison amomum, syn Sium amomum.

[MikeH]

Dec 29, 2011 22:55:20 GMT -5 atash said:

I have a project to investigate substitutes for exotic ingredients--things people in temperate climates could grow themselves.

Vitex agnus-castus

Regards,
Mike

[MikeH]

Dec 29, 2011 1:16:57 GMT -5 atash said:

If I had time I would love to culture some wild yeast off fruit skin for bread. My guess is it would give an interesting flavor, not to mention make me less dependent on buying yeast from the store, not that it breaks me, but I'd just like to know how to do it.

Or you could make a sourdough starter.

That said, I'm using a SCOBY that I bought. I don't know how SCOBYs form--I think you have to serendipitously find one

.

Nope, you can make them. This fall when I was making apple cider vinegar from sweet apple cider that we had pressed, I had one batch that I decided to let go just to see what would happen. I was surprised when a nice healthy scoby formed on the top. Not having any need for it, or more precisely, not thinking, I tossed it out. Later I started thinking about the kombucha process and kombucha mothers and saw a lot of similarities between brewing ACV and kombucha. So I brewed a batch of sweet black tea, let it cool, poured in a bottle of organic (it needs to be live) plain kombucha to act as a starter, covered it with a cheesecloth and put it on a heating pad at 80F. It's still in progress but within hours the bits of mother in the purchased kombucha had gathered on the top along the glass. Now, slowly, the entire surface has bubbles and a small skin and the edges are very pronounced. Then I came across this which suggests that I'm on the right track. It's probably a bit slower that it could be since the jar mouth is not that large - the more surface, the more exposure to yeast in the air. Or it could be that the process wasn't as sterile as it should have been and I introduced undesirable bacteria. I don't know. Fermentation is blind magic when you're just starting which is where we are.

Regards,
Mike