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Post by 12540dumont on May 11, 2012 20:23:44 GMT -5
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Post by johno on May 11, 2012 22:09:27 GMT -5
That looks like a great material. Until the price goes down, it is particularly good for special cases. But yeah, good material. Reminds me of gunnite.
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Post by sandbar on Jun 9, 2012 22:30:05 GMT -5
Good advice from Johno and Wood-n-Stake regarding the dangers of digging a hole that deep by hand ... cave-ins are killers.
I was the safety officer for a water well drilling company about 10 years ago. We had a firm policy: If the hole was over 4' deep, our employees were not permitted to enter without retainment protection or the sides of the hole were sloped back at 45 degrees.
My wife's uncle's former business partner died in a cave-in as he dug about a 6' or 8' hole to tap his home in to a gas line on his property (wanted to save the money the gas company would charge him to install the tap). Died trying to save a few hundred dollars ... buried alive.
If you go with block for the wall (it's easier to lay than you think with a minimal investment in tools, you might want to pour the cores full and run rebar down to the footers. I'm thinking the sandy soil may put some lateral pressure on the walls and cause cracking, etc.
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Post by johninfla on Jun 11, 2012 7:34:06 GMT -5
Thanks for all the information re the the danger. I'm sure not in a hurry to die...got to raise my girls!
The water situation isn't a problem...we live in the sand hills and it's almost impossible to make a puddle here!!!! The water table is about seventy feet down.
I've never laid up block, but I can learn....being as I have the time.
Thanks again!
John
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Post by woolval on Apr 24, 2015 7:16:02 GMT -5
Hi Johno, thanks for the input! Digging is one thing that makes me glad my soil is pure sand!! I'm pretty good with wood frame construction but like I said I have almost zero experience with concrete, so any input is appreciated. John Hi Johinfla, I know I'm 3 years past the last post here... just wondering if you were successful in your root cellar. Or did the sand cave in on you? Also, maybe this is foolish, but what about using a septic tank for a root cellar? (Preferably a new one) I just think they have applications other than to hold a bunch of "crap". If they're water tight to keep stuff leaking out, that should also work to keep water out! I have no idea what that would cost, just thoughts floating around in my head. I live in Ocala, so I'd like to know how things worked out for you. Hopefully you didn't get yourself buried in that sand. Thanks, Woolval
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Post by flowerweaver on Apr 24, 2015 8:07:48 GMT -5
woolval welcome to the forum! I am thinking about converting an old septic tank into a root cellar that happens to be half under my kitchen. Supposedly the previous owners had it removed because of the proximity to the well when the new one was installed, at least that's what they told us and what was shown on the permit filed at the courthouse. In retrospect, it must have been a six-pack deal to get a county sign off. Imagine our surprise when our system backed up after about five years to find only the rarely used guest bathroom went to the new tank and that the old one was still working the rest of the house! We've since re-routed everything to the new one (didn't even take out a permit, because we were just doing what supposedly had been done), and drained the old one, which appears to have been poured in place and is a sizable room. Where we live in Texas the ground is mostly alluvial gravel and rock (basement are rare) so creating a root cellar would be costly, and here's a free hole in the ground with concrete walls and floor. I know a lot of people think this idea is crazy. I think if I fill it with water and bleach, and aerate it in some way maybe it can be cleaned out enough to perhaps rock up the walls. I'm lobbying for a kitchen addition and I think it's possible that stairs down into it could come from within the house. It's going to be several years before this project can begin. But I was glad to see someone else is thinking along the same lines. As for safety in hand dug holes, our 50 foot well was dug in the late 1800's by pioneers. A couple years ago we had to have the silt removed during the drought to restore flow to the artesian spring. Well companies won't touch an open well because of the dangers, not only of cave-ins but deadly gas. I think the first three names of people known to clean out wells we were given to call were all in prison!
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Post by steev on Apr 24, 2015 9:59:09 GMT -5
Very efficient: food can go straight to the septic, cutting out the middle-man.
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Post by philagardener on Apr 24, 2015 17:08:39 GMT -5
here's a free hole in the ground with concrete walls and floor. Sounds like it could make an good tornado shelter too . . . not to dredge up memories of the not-to-distant past.
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Post by flowerweaver on Apr 26, 2015 17:54:15 GMT -5
philagardener yes, it would! Only, could I get the donkey down the stairs? LOL. We've been under a severe thunderstorm watch for several days but fortunately all we've had is a good rain, 2.5 inches. I'm thinking we should have an open house or backyard party this summer on the date to commemorate surviving!
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Post by Al on Apr 26, 2015 23:49:27 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is backfilling soil against the walls once the structure is built. This should be done in10 cm (4") layers. Each layer must be tamped down thoroughly, seriously compacted, or the whole back filled area will subside over a couple of years. If you want to see this just look at holes dug to lay cables where there has been inadequate supervision. This ramming & the weight of the backfill will impose massive pressure against walls, especially as you propose a 12 foot deep excavation.The pressure will be increased should the soil ever become waterlogged. Consider concrete walls & plan for drainage. Perhaps with a sump & pump. Or just fig a simple clamp in some shady spot.
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Post by korakora13 on Aug 30, 2018 12:58:28 GMT -5
If 72 is the temperature of the ground water, that means it's the average temperature of the environment.... So a deep enough root cellar would tend towards 72 degrees year round. I store potatoes at that temperature for 2-3 months. Sure they go downhill faster than at 50F, but I don't require my potatoes to look like the green things that I get from the grocery store. I think that dark is a more important storage criteria than cold. There are lots of clever tricks for keeping things cooler... For example the devices that are used to keep the permafrost frozen under buildings in Alaska, and under pipelines in the tundra could also be used to keep your root cellar cooler. Heat pipes work as one-way conductors of heat... So you stick them in the walls of your root cellar and under the floor, and then whenever the air temperature is cooler than the ground around the cellar, the heat is being exported to the air. If you ever get a clear night and have some radiant cooling, the heat is pouring out of the ground through the heat pipes. And during the cooler winter months that whole mass of ground is getting cooled. Heat pipes in my climate would turn the ground into permafrost, but in Florida they might create really favorable conditions for a cellar. And heat pipes don't require electricity to operate. You set them and forget about them. Regarding the heat tubes. Is this the same concept as a geothermal / Earthtube greenhouse? Lay 6" pipes under the structure to transfer heat / cold? Do you also have one end of the pipe exposed inside the root cellar, then the other end of the pipe exposed to the surface air? Do you recommend using smooth pipes or corrugated pipe? When you recommend "sticking them in walls"...are you talking about between the dirt and sinder block walls? Thanks. I know I'm 6 years late on the thread. Hope you're still around. Not much info on hot weather root cellars.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 30, 2018 22:15:52 GMT -5
These heat pipes, used for cooling a root cellar, would be the exact same technology as what is used in the far north to keep the permafrost frozen around buildings, or pipelines. I'm thinking 1" to 1.5" diameter piping would be more than adequate for a root cellar. Probably with fins on top to enhance heat exchange. Then whenever the outside temperature was colder than the ground, or inside of the cellar, the pipes would be pulling heat up and out, and releasing it into the air. For example: Two-phase Musing
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