|
Post by bunkie on Feb 8, 2013 8:34:57 GMT -5
Greek farmers give away 55 tons of free fruit & vegetableswww.digitaljournal.com/article/343003#ixzz2KJWeo0mSAthens - On Wednesday farmers in Greece, while protesting high production costs, gave away tons of free fruit and vegetables to needy Greek people outside the Agriculture Ministry in Athens.
Greek farmers wanted to call attention to the desperate conditions in the crisis-hit country and gave away 55 tons of their produce to needy and hungry people....
|
|
|
Post by synergy on Feb 8, 2013 11:55:19 GMT -5
Key to this is the proposal to increase taxation on agricultural production . It would be enlightening if we were informed how and what they are currently taxed and what increases are proposed. Too bad the media never emphasized the farmers point very well, instead focusing on the mob behaviour of the people in need. I know someone who traveled to Greece last summer and he said he would not return in the next ten years , it was simply too problematic in his opinion . On other forums I got the idea there have been herioc efforts of people to trade, start up backyard gardens and so forth and other indications that the people themselves are also in some small part play a role in the situation they are now face with. That can happen anywhere, and while dealing with government and big coporations is akin to being a mosquito annoying them until collectively you have mass impacts, we can all take a few steps to be more responsible for ourselves in the here and now of our own lives. How many of those people planted trees , gardens or tried to conserve soil ? I bet that was not considered 'progressive' or a means of being a 'success' and now they are tearing down their trees for fuel and I happened to see one poster who said his heating costs were high yet commented he heated his home to 28 degrees celsius because he had an infant . Who the heck heats their house past 20 celsius here ? Never thought of warmer clothing, really ? Some of the consequences of how we live their lives is bound to give us a reality check and it is not just something that people should brush off , we can all be trying to implement better behaviours and systems .
|
|
|
Post by davida on Feb 8, 2013 13:23:46 GMT -5
Greek farmers give away 55 tons of free fruit & vegetableswww.digitaljournal.com/article/343003#ixzz2KJWeo0mSAthens - On Wednesday farmers in Greece, while protesting high production costs, gave away tons of free fruit and vegetables to needy Greek people outside the Agriculture Ministry in Athens.
Greek farmers wanted to call attention to the desperate conditions in the crisis-hit country and gave away 55 tons of their produce to needy and hungry people.... The sentence that stood out to me was: "The reality in Greece is harsh and difficult for some citizens to understand." In a similar manner, I think that the reality of what is happening in the US is hard for citizens to understand. A quick look at: www.usdebtclock.org/ shows that the USA's debt is presently 16.5 trillion, 16,500,000,000,000 or 146,114 dollars per taxpayer. The real problem is the US Unfunded Liabilities. They are 16.2 trillion for Social Security Unfunded Liabilities, 21.4 trillion for Unfunded Prescription Drug Liabilities and 85 trillion for Unfunded Medicare Liabilities. This totals an additional 122.6 trillion, 122,600,000,000,000, or 1,085,126 dollars per taxpayer of unfunded liabilities owed mostly to the sick and elderly and future sick and elderly. I am a numbers person so I could go on and on. This does not consider state, county and local debt. But it looks like to me that the American public should take their heads out of the sand and consider how we are going to pay for the promises made (Unfunded Public Liabilities). The previous is all facts so I did not stand on the soapbox. Now I climb upon the soapbox: And additional taxing of the rich is like putting an one inch bandaid on a ten foot gapping wound. You walk away feeling good about yourself because you did something.
|
|
|
Post by MikeH on Feb 8, 2013 13:55:24 GMT -5
Easy. Renege. Delay benefit start dates. Raise deductibles. Extend wait times for critical procedures. And on and on. Bad to be sure but not the same as reneging on the 16.5 trillion of debt. That's a bond default. That will lead to mass unemployment and economic contraction and asset deflation.
While absolute measures of debt are one way of looking at the numbers, we tend to look at relative measures such as debt/to GDP. That's a measure of the ability to keep up payments, a cash flow analysis. The problem is that with zero/low GDP growth that ratio gets out of whack quickly unless borrowing is cut. And that's where it gets really interesting fast since the US is living beyond its means and is making up the gap between expenditure and revenue by borrowing.
|
|
|
Post by steev on Feb 9, 2013 1:22:49 GMT -5
I suggest the US stop pissing away its wealth on war and the military-industrial complex. I suggest the US take back the hand-outs given to mega-banks, that enabled them to pass out bonuses to the people who'd made the meltdown happen (to their, and the banks', profit). I suggest the US stop corporate welfare (including to agribusiness and the petrochemical industry).
Unfunded Social Security liabilities? Even Reagan knew that's not true, and if it were or will be, just take the cap off FICA taxes and the problem is gone.
The benefit of higher taxes on the rich is not in the taxes collected, but in reducing the incentive to suck the profits out of an enterprise, rather than re-investing and building the enterprise. The benefit of smaller gobs of money sticking to the rich is less ability to speculate, gamble, and buy legislators. The last few weeks, in California, at least, we've seen the cost of gasoline jump ~$.40/gallon, for no discernable reason but speculation. There's just too much money sitting idle, looking for a place to put down a bet, rather than building something, in hopes of winning even more money.
|
|
bertiefox
gardener
There's always tomorrow!
Posts: 236
|
Post by bertiefox on Feb 10, 2013 11:20:55 GMT -5
First, the poor Greeks and workers DO pay their taxes. It is the corrupt ruling and middle classes who have found ways to pay almost nothing, and those include the political class who have plunged Greece into this situation over many decades. These are the politicians who LIED to the EU over the Greek finances to get admission to the Euro when they were nowhere like ready and unable to meet the rules of Euro membership; these are the politicians who expect the rest of Europe to bail them out while failing to do anything to get the economy on the right track. But the EU itself is forcing through an austerity agenda that can only make the Greeks poorer and less able to repay their debts. The whole of the European project is based on the idea of bringing poorer countries up to the standard of the richer ones, to enlarge markets and enable competition on an equal basis. But what is happening here is a perversion of that aim as the Greeks are being forced deeper into poverty and as a consequence they are no longer a market for goods from other EU countries. What the EU should be doing instead is pouring investment into Greece to promote new industries that can sell competitively priced agricultural and manufactured goods into the rest of Europe, and above all people should start BUYING Greek exports.
|
|
|
Post by bunkie on Feb 10, 2013 12:57:25 GMT -5
thanks for the info bertiefox. looks like we're heading in the same direction.
|
|
|
Post by steev on Feb 10, 2013 23:16:47 GMT -5
Exactly; those with more than enough are telling those without "Tighten your belts, work harder!". This while they destroy the lower rungs on the ladder that the less-affluent might have hoped to climb.
Societies, economies, gardens: all the same in that if you take out all the product, putting nothing back, you impoverish the basis of production, sometimes to the point of collapse.
|
|
|
Post by MikeH on Feb 27, 2013 16:05:39 GMT -5
The 2012 fiscal condition of the United States suffered its worst annual deterioration in the history of the Republic. Based on generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP-based accounting), the actual federal deficit hit a record $6.6 trillion in the year ended September 30, 2012, a level that was fully 42% of the nation’s annual GDP.
The GAAP-based annual deficit differs markedly from the headline cash-based accounting version, which showed a $1.1 trillion cash shortfall in the government’s 2012 day-to-day operations. Using GAAP-based accrual accounting, though, as typically used by private corporations, the government’s day-to-day operations were shown to have suffered a shortfall of $1.3 trillion, with an additional $5.3 trillion shortfall in the year-to-year increase of unfunded liabilities in social programs, such as in Medicare and Social Security. Those unfunded liabilities are reported in terms of net present value (NPV), where future liability dollar estimates have been reduced to reflect the time-value of money. Effectively, the NPV indicates the amount of cash needed in hand today in order to meet those unfunded obligations.Oops!
|
|
|
Post by davida on Feb 27, 2013 20:01:15 GMT -5
The 2012 fiscal condition of the United States suffered its worst annual deterioration in the history of the Republic. Based on generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP-based accounting), the actual federal deficit hit a record $6.6 trillion in the year ended September 30, 2012, a level that was fully 42% of the nation’s annual GDP.
The GAAP-based annual deficit differs markedly from the headline cash-based accounting version, which showed a $1.1 trillion cash shortfall in the government’s 2012 day-to-day operations. Using GAAP-based accrual accounting, though, as typically used by private corporations, the government’s day-to-day operations were shown to have suffered a shortfall of $1.3 trillion, with an additional $5.3 trillion shortfall in the year-to-year increase of unfunded liabilities in social programs, such as in Medicare and Social Security. Those unfunded liabilities are reported in terms of net present value (NPV), where future liability dollar estimates have been reduced to reflect the time-value of money. Effectively, the NPV indicates the amount of cash needed in hand today in order to meet those unfunded obligations.Oops! And from the same article: "Suggestions that somehow the total GDP can cover the government’s deficit, debt and obligations problems are nonsense. With decades of practice and fine-tuning, the U.S. government has reached the practical limits of the net cash it can siphon out of the income-producing private sector. The system has reached that delicate balance, where the government’s raising taxes actually reduces the government’s cash receipts, where higher taxes reduce economic activity enough to reduce tax revenues."
|
|
|
Post by steev on Feb 27, 2013 22:30:04 GMT -5
Regretably, I must reiterate: the point of raising taxes on the rich is not to raise revenue, but to alter behavior. It is the changed behavior that has beneficial effects on the economy, leading to increased investment, employment, production, and consumption (as a direct result of spendable income to the less-moneyed, who will spend every dime they get, thereby fueling economic activity). The rising tide that lifts all boats starts by flooding the mudflats, not by trickling down from the yacht harbor, regardless of the propaganda the yacht owners pay to have spread about by their hired toadies.
|
|
|
Post by bunkie on Feb 28, 2013 12:09:54 GMT -5
Greeks Panic As Drug Firms Slash Medicine Supplies By 90% On Bad Debtswww.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-28/greeks-panic-drug-firms-slash-supplies-90-bad-debtsGreece is facing a serious shortage of medicines amid claims that pharmaceutical multinationals have halted shipments to the country because of the economic crisis and, as The Guardian reports, concerns that the drugs will be exported by middlemen because prices are higher in other European countries. Rubbing further salt into the Greek (un-medicated) wound, the Red Cross slashed its supply of donor blood to Greece because it had not paid its bills on time. Pharmacies in Greece describe chaotic scenes as clients desperately search from shop to shop for much-needed drugs. Greece's Pharmaceutical Association said "around 300 drugs are in very short supply," adding that "It's a disgrace. The companies are ensuring that they come in dribs and drabs to avoid prosecution. Everyone is really frightened." The fear for the multinationals remains that wholesalers can legally sell to other nations at higher prices and a "combination of Greece's low medicine prices and unpaid debt by the state." Lines form early and 'get very aggressive' one pharmacy exclaimed, "We have reached a tragic point." Via The Guardian,... more...
|
|
|
Post by steev on Feb 28, 2013 22:44:07 GMT -5
The pharmaceutical companies are insisting on cash-on-the-barrelhead? Wow, what a surprise! If anybody is going to be hardnosed when they've got you by the balls, wouldn't it be Big Pharma? After all, when the deal is "pay up or die" they do expect to be paid. Just wait to hear how shrilly they scream when people start deciding it makes more sense to suicide-bomb than to die quietly.
|
|
|
Post by olddog on Mar 1, 2013 10:22:35 GMT -5
yes, in earlier years, when the taxes on the rich were higher, and the tax code was different, the rich did have to re-invest in their businesses, or pay much higher taxes.
Now they can take the money out to buy luxuries, beyond the wildest dreams of 99% of us.
|
|
|
Post by steev on Mar 1, 2013 22:34:14 GMT -5
I have no problem with the rich buying luxuries. If somebody has millions to spend on a yacht, I applaud the decision to do so; I suspect those who will build and provision it do also; everybody wants a living. At least that money doesn't go to buy legislators.
I have a problem with the rich buying corporate welfare and taxpayer-funded security for their looting of resources world-wide. I have a problem with their bought legislators who vote the interests of their corporate paymasters, rather than living up to their sworn duty to protect the Constitution and work for the general welfare.
The rich person who wants to drop hundreds of dollars for caviar? Bravo! That sturgeon fisherman, that caviar processor, and that importer may all hope to pay their kids' college bills. May they prosper and their children be trained to productive work; may they be taxed enough to help ensure they don't live in a society of a few superrich and a mass of the impoverished.
|
|