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Post by steev on Jun 17, 2013 0:00:08 GMT -5
Well, where they're grazing is certainly not an orchard. My trees are an introduction to what was their pasture, so essentially I'm letting them continue to use what they have done for decades, while I make it (so damned slowly!) something else. At this time, they're turning rangeweed into horsecrap, and I'm perhaps turning unused acreage into neighborly obligation (maybe even organic lamb and pork, down the road). They're good folks; I'm pleased to make what I am not currently capable of using available to them. They'll be my neighbors across the road the rest of my life; it's best we be intertwined, for my purposes, frankly. In short, I see it as in my interests to contribute as much as I can, while I can, to that community, in hopes of community support when I need it, which I certainly will, probably when I'm 109, or so.
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Post by nicollas on Oct 22, 2013 11:47:09 GMT -5
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Post by richardw on Nov 19, 2013 13:10:44 GMT -5
My orchard is now at the time of year now where the grasses are the most dominate,as the summer goes on the clovers,Alfalfa and Yarrow take over.  |
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Post by richardw on Sept 29, 2014 1:44:34 GMT -5
After so many years of been established and not mowed ,i like how the grasses form large clumps and biomass  |
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Post by flowerweaver on Sept 29, 2014 10:44:19 GMT -5
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Post by synergy on Oct 6, 2014 2:34:19 GMT -5
MIkeH did you plant black honeylocust to fix nitrogen between your orchard trees ?
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Post by MikeH on Oct 6, 2014 9:53:10 GMT -5
MIkeH did you plant black honeylocust to fix nitrogen between your orchard trees ? There's black locust and there's honey locust but no black honeylocust as far as I know. Re: honeylocust being a nitrogen fixer, there's a certain amount of debate about that. Permies tend to say it is although with little or nothing to support that position. There's a single research paper that says maybe but is far from conclusive. Nope. The orchard conversion was a retrofit of an existing orchard so there was no room. If I were starting from scratch, I wouldn't plant black locust in that situation. it gets big very fast. We've got some three year old trees that we started from seed and one of them is 15-20 feet tall already. If I were starting from scratch. I'd plant Caragana arborescens. Since we don't have the room, we've been planting Dutch white clover and trying to establish White Prairie Clover which I discovered in an article written by Eric Toensmeier. We've also been encouraging Medicago sativa which has quite a deep root system and brings up all kinds of micro-nutrients in addition to fixing nitrogen.
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Post by synergy on Oct 8, 2014 23:26:07 GMT -5
I meant black locust and honey locust , I am just tired when I get on the computer at night : ) Good to know, I have put lots of room between my young orchard trees and (semi randomly mixed varieties in our little orchard area) for good pasture to grow in between and we seem to get plenty of clover everywhere from topdressing with horse manure and it is the white clover that is safe for grazing livestock on . I would like to haul rabbit tractors around in there or graze geese or a couple sheep.
I did not mix the nut trees in with the fruit trees but rather am planting them around the perimeter grazing pasture mixed with evergreens . My place is a really compact and intensive 4 acres. I have 5 walnuts big enough to tap for syrup this year , the rest of my nut trees are small yet. I had thought of planting the black locust in the orchard and coppicing for using for fence posts and such to keep them from shading out the fruit trees now I am thinking maybe keep them in the perimeter shelterbelt planting.
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Post by synergy on Nov 2, 2014 21:50:26 GMT -5
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Post by steev on Nov 2, 2014 23:19:22 GMT -5
Good video; good practice.
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Post by MikeH on Nov 4, 2014 6:57:40 GMT -5
Does this guy seem to pollard his locust ? No, he's not. From www.permies.com/t/36668/forest-garden/Questions-Permanent-Orchard-Organic-Stefan: Q: Re Honey locust trees (ie the “N” in “NAP”) – how is the height controlled from shading everything around it? Is the only “pruning” done by placing the wire hooks on it to make the branches go downwards, are they coppiced at all, …. ? My honey locusts are over 40 ft high in my backyard! A: height control by training the tops, look closely in the film there are a few shots showing the 'bent over' tops. Plus we train the branches very downward. Yes trees are like clay in the hand of a potter. You can make them do whatever you want (within reason of time invested), just look at Bonsai. When you look at the full film, it appears that he's been doing some pruning. Additionally, his honey locusts seem to have much smaller trunks than some that I've seen. Maybe his management results in trees that do not grow beyond a certain size. As for using Gleditsia triacanthos to fix nitrogen, it's not really clear that it does. There are no nitrogen fixing nodules and there has only been once piece of research done in 1996 - Toward a new concept of the evolution of symbiotic nitrogen fixation in the Leguminosae by James A. Bryan. The study inconclusively concludes: "Based on the indications of nitrogenase activity reported here, whatever mechanism or mechanisms may ultimately prove responsible, it appears that nitrogen fixation extends to non-nodulating species of the Leguminosae and that non-nodular nitrogen fixation provides a basis for the evolution of the nodular legume-rhizobial symbioses." It also says that "based on preliminary observations we hypothesize that the rates of acetylene reduction in non-nodulating plants may be between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude lower in than in nodulating plants. Even if Gleditsia does produce nitrogen, it produces far less than nodulating plants. There was no follow up research and I've been unable to find any similar research. If one really wants to have a nitrogen fixer, there are many options - web.archive.org/web/20141104105258/http://www.perennialsolutions.org/all-nitrogen-fixers-are-not-created-equal. I did some searching through the USDA data base using Toensmeier's HIGH, MEDIUM, and LOW criteria. Based on the results, I refined the search to show me additional info to help in the selection of the best plants for my location. Here's the search result for high nitrogen fixers - plants.usda.gov/java/AdvancedSearchServlet?dur=Perennial&n_fix_pot_cd=High&dsp_vernacular=on&dsp_coppice_pot_ind=on&dsp_grwth_rate_cd=on&dsp_root_dpth_min_rng=on&dsp_temp_tolr_min_rng=on&Synonyms=all&viewby=sciname. I included coppiceable and growth rate because I wanted to get an idea of how to manage the trees on the list. Although only European Alder is coppiceable, I've decided to grow Red Alder instead. It seems to be a more versatile tree - plants.usda.gov/factsheet/pdf/fs_algl2.pdf. It's primarily for the versatility that I'm growing it. I'll coppice some for compost material. I'm not sure that this interplanting of nitrogen fixers isn't being overemphasized, if not overrated. I think that the place to start is the soil - build organic matter by using ramial wood chips. This will create the basis for a healthy microbial population, in particular, mycorrhizal fungi. I think that this is what is at work in Sobkowiak's orchard. Micahel Phillips doesn't interplant nitrogen fixers and yet he gets the same kind of results as Sobkowiak. Sobkowiak puts his results down, in part, to interplanting nitrogen fixers; Phillips, to his holistic approach. When you look at what Sobkowiak is doing, it's very holistic although not exactly the same as Phillips. As an added measure, we also inoculate everything that we plant with this - www.usemyke.com/mycorise/gardening/tree/myketree/myketree.htm but not at the application rates that they recommend. We simply dust the roots with a couple of tablespoons. The fungi will spread. |
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Post by greenfinger on Apr 16, 2015 7:17:38 GMT -5
"Great to see. I am keen to do similar but was a little dismayed at Michael Phillips' insistence that the woody mulch had to be ramial woodchip. I simply don't have access to any. I do have plenty of other woodchip so I've decided to push ahead with it anyway. I figure a diversity of mulches should work" raymondo I don't have access to affordable wood chips, last couple years I've settled for pet bedding... not the best... I recently read, or heard someone state the obvious: You can't do everything, so do what you can. So, this year 3 of my trees got the bedding treatment, along with "ramial wood twigs" from my root suckering fruit dropping plums. Wasted space that they are. As I was snipping my 6" ramial twigs, I was thinking "You can't do everything, so do what you can." My 6" twigs progressed to 20" twigs...  |
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Post by mskrieger on May 5, 2015 13:46:02 GMT -5
I don't go out of my way to get ramial woodchips...instead I just let the prunings from the fruit trees themselves lie where they fall (after I clip them into 6" lengths) and if there's a windstorm or whatnot and a lot of downed small branches I chop those up too. I also let the autumn leaves lie, and add in some extra leaves from parts of the yard where I don't want leaves (the lawn, for example.) Occasionally bring in seaweed 'cause I live by the beach. Have built up a very nice fungal duff layer over the past three years doing just this. Herbs and clumps of grass grow through it here and there; very pleasing.
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Post by steev on May 5, 2015 21:56:56 GMT -5
One of my fantasies is having the free time to spend occasionally, after a storm, foraging algae/seaweed on the coast; it's such wonderful soil amendment; it would be a commitment of 2 or 3 days for me, though, given the distance from Oakland to good foraging beaches and thence the route through the Coast Range to the farm. Good honest sweat and excellent fertilizer at a fair price, though, I think.
I don't bother cutting up my prunings, figuring they give loft to the weeds I throw on them; everything sinks down eventually. Of course, I'm not doing my thing in an urban or suburban environment, only a handful of miles from designated Wilderness, actually, hence the elk and occasional bear or puma.
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Post by mskrieger on May 6, 2015 8:49:13 GMT -5
Ah yes, Steev--you are a master of the principle of least effort necessary. I admire that. Do take some time to go down to the beaches after a storm, though. Good for the soul as well as the soil.
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