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Post by imgrimmer on Aug 23, 2018 8:12:09 GMT -5
Today I visited my pennelli hybrid plants again. Last time hand pollination seemed not to work. I pollinated again. I watched the plants for a while all bees and bumblebees are interested in every other kind of flower but not in pennelli tomatos. I saw bumblebees on domestic tomatoes not often but once in a while. I wonder if european native bumblebees aren`t interested in these tomatoes... What native and wild even invasive non-native solanaceae plants are found in your area? One of the most Common Here In Montana is the invasive non-native Solanam dulcamera bittersweet nightshade which may be native there. If you have this weed or another common nightshade family flower, it might be worthwhile to study the bees on it. There are Solanum dulcamara and Solanum sisymbriifolium next to them. dulacamara has already berries and sisymbriifolium too. I saw a bumblebee on it too today. There were some bees visiting but all stopped only for Cheiranthus which is growing as a weed. Obviously it is more attractive. I cut it down. Also it might be good to not just look for bees but perhaps the brown bite marks they leave behind on the flowers during buzz pollination if your plants are getting bitten you may just have not been in the garden at the right time. I`ll take a closer look. I have I think 12 small penellii cross plants when I left for this work trip collecting seeds I had only one with fruit the rest had all aborted. I think I had a bad pollination year in general for tomatoes and this seemed generally true for peruvianum, penellii x and habrochaites plants... There are no wilted flowers they seem to abort as soon as they wilt... The same with the Fern x Habrochaites hybrid right beside. Today I used domestic tomatoes for pollination. Last time I used also other pennelli hybrids. |
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Post by imgrimmer on Aug 23, 2018 8:18:43 GMT -5
Today I visited my pennelli hybrid plants again. Last time hand pollination seemed not to work. I pollinated again. I watched the plants for a while all bees and bumblebees are interested in every other kind of flower but not in pennelli tomatos. I saw bumblebees on domestic tomatoes not often but once in a while. I wonder if european native bumblebees aren`t interested in these tomatoes... Last year the F1s were not the most attractive at first but later on decently attractive to the two bumble bees later. But the one next to the Peruvianum plant had more visits than the others. The Peruvian would attract the bee first and then sometimes they would visit the pennellii F1. The one F2 i planted out has has no visits or fruits i have seen. But it May have no pollen and is not near the Peruvianum. Fruits on the pennellii plants take months to ripen, so even if hand pollinated a TON (early flowers before opening can bypass incompatibility) you might not have enough time without digging one up for the winter. That is no good news. It is late in season maybe 1 1/2 month in maximum left depending on late blight pressure.
I was thinking about pollen sterility or absence of it as well. I only used domestic tomato pollen this time.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 23, 2018 8:50:20 GMT -5
Last year the F1s were not the most attractive at first but later on decently attractive to the two bumble bees later. But the one next to the Peruvianum plant had more visits than the others. The Peruvian would attract the bee first and then sometimes they would visit the pennellii F1. The one F2 i planted out has has no visits or fruits i have seen. But it May have no pollen and is not near the Peruvianum. Fruits on the pennellii plants take months to ripen, so even if hand pollinated a TON (early flowers before opening can bypass incompatibility) you might not have enough time without digging one up for the winter. That is no good news. It is late in season maybe 1 1/2 month in maximum left depending on late blight pressure.
I was thinking about pollen sterility or absence of it as well. I only used domestic tomato pollen this time.
Try visiting the interspecies bean peruvianum pennellii thread. The tomato papers i linked to were interesting. The earlier the flowers the better the chance of accepting domestic pollen, but they don't have the sticky stuff to catch the pollen on immature stigmas so we used walnut oil mixes. Edit: alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8996/peruvianum-pennellii-crosses?page=6 |
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Post by imgrimmer on Aug 23, 2018 10:28:34 GMT -5
Thanks!
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 28, 2018 13:12:31 GMT -5
Of those from that study, the three i had tried to get seed for were: 1: Magnus, 2:Ponderosa, and 3: marhio. I think i have seed for all three, but i have yet to have them make it to full maturity with my failings.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 28, 2018 13:16:44 GMT -5
That is no good news. It is late in season maybe 1 1/2 month in maximum left depending on late blight pressure.
I was thinking about pollen sterility or absence of it as well. I only used domestic tomato pollen this time.
Try visiting the interspecies bean peruvianum pennellii thread. The tomato papers i linked to were interesting. The earlier the flowers the better the chance of accepting domestic pollen, but they don't have the sticky stuff to catch the pollen on immature stigmas so we used walnut oil mixes. Edit: alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8996/peruvianum-pennellii-crosses?page=6, i have a new idea for you to try with peruvianum. Try using the above mentioned method of pollinating inmature peruvianum flowers (-5 days) and see if you can bypass the incompatibility factors. You May need to use oil to get the pollen to stick or lilly stigma exudiate. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 30, 2018 7:05:03 GMT -5
This tomato self seeded in the area that the pimpinellifolium / peruvianum plants were growing last year. It is also near the patch of cheesmanaie plants i planted from seed. Regardless it appears to be a cheesmaniae or pimp. tomato plant, BUT it looks like the fruit has stripes like peruvianum or habrochiates! Perhaps a bee pollinated hybrid?!  20180828_195032 by Andrew Barney, on Flickr If it is indeed a hybrid, then promiscuous pollination certainly applies  , though i think what Joseph was really going for was SI which would force outcrossing. |
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Post by DarJones on Sept 2, 2018 15:54:10 GMT -5
The leaves look like habrochaites.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 2, 2018 18:34:48 GMT -5
The leaves look like habrochaites. Yes, some sort of do. But on the other hand i've seen similar leaves on a known S. cheesmaniae hybrid with what i assume with some sort of domestic tomato sold by Terrior seeds that claims it is a pure S. cheesmaniae, but is not. So similar i was actually growing one of those out last year and thought i had a habrochiates hybrid. But it wasn't. So, Joseph may be right to some degree that sometimes it is very hard to tell leaf "types" based on species. Perhaps you can sometimes, but i can see how it can get muddy real fast. I will continue to watch it and see how the fruits develop. one idea i had was that i could try using flower and fruit differences for identification. ok. thanks! That's what i was kindof thinking already. p.s. i found this gem of a photo today! (source: www.irbtomato.org)  I will try to grow out some S. galapagense this year. I will try and see if the flowers are as noticeable as the ones in this image. S. huaylasense and S. corneliomulleri look interesting. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 3, 2018 14:28:54 GMT -5
one idea i had was that i could try using flower and fruit differences for identification. I downloaded a tomato species identification key the other day, which used flower and fruit characteristics as part of the key. It was very inconclusive! I was trying to key out plants that have been growing in close proximity to each other for about 3 generations, so I'll just say that it was a muddled mess. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 3, 2018 16:21:50 GMT -5
Lol. Figures. It was. Worth a try though.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 3, 2018 18:32:52 GMT -5
Lol. Figures. It was. Worth a try though. For example, some of the wild plants had 1 leaf per sympodial unit... But the key only had entries for 2 leaf and 3 leaf sympodial units!!! |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 4, 2018 11:16:18 GMT -5
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 4, 2018 11:24:44 GMT -5
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 4, 2018 13:19:22 GMT -5
Also i think I've heard it said that the genetic variation in peruvianum as a species is far more than domestic tomatoes, pimp., cheesmaniae, and galapagense combined. Or something like that.
Whether That statement was made before or after peruvianum was split into four "species" depending whether you are a splitter or a lumper i wouldn't know.
But even with the archtypes of these species defined it seems no one had thoroughly documented well the ones that deviate from that archtype but are still included.
Also some seed accessions have been misidentified and corrected later. It's possible some still are. It's all rather arbitrary. Lol
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, though i think what Joseph was really going for was SI which would force outcrossing.
