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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 6, 2016 11:22:02 GMT -5
I just realized that I didn't give a status report about this project at the end of last growing season... Three of the F1 plants produced seed after being grown in the basement/greenhouse overwinter. So I planted three populations: [Hillbilly X Jagodka]: About 18 plants grew to maturity... 5 of them had loose/open flower structures. One of them, which I am calling HX-9 had a whole string of traits that I was seeking: large yellow/red bicolor fruit, determinate, early. It also bore it's flowers high above the foliage. It was very attractive to bumblebees. Many of the traits are recessive, so it should be fairly stable. I'm planning on planting large numbers of offspring next year. HX-9: I collected seeds from other mothers that had interesting traits. I intend to grow some of them out in smaller quantities. [DX-52-12 X Jagodka]: About 28 plants grew to maturity. Early in the season, two of plants had a flower with highly exerted stigma, but later in the season the plants had normal flowers. So I ended up just saving a mix of seeds from a number of plants. I am calling this population DXX-M. I intend this to be my main production tomato next growing season. The progenitors are both productive tomatoes for this area, so I expect them to do wonderful. I intend to watch for open flowers. DXX-M: [Jagodka X Unknown Pollen Donor]: About 16 plants grew to maturity. I didn't find any open flowers or exerted stigmas. I'm intending to replant next year, but not putting a lot of effort into this one. I saved seeds from about half of the plants. I'm calling it LX-M. Additionally, I noted exerted stigmas in a population of dehybridizing Sungold that I have been growing. The Sungold clan was very attractive to bumblebees. I didn't do a good job of selecting out the plants with exerted stigmas, opting instead to save seeds from plants with larger fruits. I'm intending to pay more attention to the dehybridizing Sungold population next year. I received some F2 seed in a swap. Perhaps I can pull self-incompatibility out of the population. I attempted some crosses last year, but they didn't take. I grew some F3/F4 plants that originated from crosses with wild species. They didn't have open flower structures nor exerted stigmas, and the flowers were very tiny, but they were highly attractive to bumblebees. And two of them were fantastic tasting. Sun-4, descended from Sungold:  Wild Cross 5: A great tasting tomato descended from a cross with an unknown wild species.  |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 6, 2016 14:25:39 GMT -5
Wow, that orange one looks good. How does it taste?
Do the wild crossed ones have speckles or is that just from environmental scarring? You said some of those taste better, how so. More complex flavors?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 6, 2016 14:57:13 GMT -5
Wow, that orange one looks good. How does it taste? Like a typical tomato. It definitely didn't inherit Sungold's flavor. Do the wild crossed ones have speckles or is that just from environmental scarring? You said some of those taste better, how so. More complex flavors? The Wild Cross 5 plant has the "zebra stripe" pattern. Regarding the speckles: There were only two tomatoes in my garden last year with speckles on them. One plant from the wild crosses, and a variety which I have grown for years. I consider speckles to be part of it's phenotype. Both of the wild crosses that I thought were particularly tasty had green coloring around the gel-sack. They both seemed sweet, and had complex flavors. I'm delighted to report that most of the tomato photos from last growing season are now lost to me!!! I'll try to get more and better photos next growing season. I call my other tomato Brad that has speckles on the skin:  |
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Post by raymondo on Feb 6, 2016 22:30:35 GMT -5
Not sure if I've posted this before but the cultivar Burnley Bounty, developed by the Victorian Dept of Ag here in Australia in the 1960s, was developed from a cross between Grosse Lisse and Solanum peruvianum. Since it already contains some of S. peruvianum's genes it may prove crossable with S. peruvianum again, this time to bring in the obligate outcrossing nature of this tomato relative. Just a thought. I don't know any details of the breeding program so I don't how many times the original was back-crossed into S. lycopersicum. It may be that there is very little of the S. peruvianum genome left.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 7, 2016 0:17:52 GMT -5
Oops. I guess i should have been more specific. I was actually referring to HX-9, not the sungold derivative. I guess technically you said it's bicolor. It's a very pleasing color, shape, and size. I imagine it tastes really good. And if not it at least looks good. That's the one i'm secretly rooting for.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 7, 2016 0:44:23 GMT -5
Hillbilly, the mother of HX-9 has been near the top of my list of best tasting tomatoes for 30 years. It doesn't grow as well here as it did when I lived in a warmer climate. So I've missed growing it. I'm delighted that a short-season determinate version of it showed up among the F2 last season. Taste was among the best in my garden last summer.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 16, 2016 17:17:44 GMT -5
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 17, 2016 2:04:27 GMT -5
Just found this. It's a study from 1939. Only skimming right now. It lists several varieties that were observed to have extended stigmas, but what i gather from the study the lengths varied depending on environmental factors. Despite that a few varieties consistently had exserted stigmas regardless of environmental factors. One factor for example would be daylight early in the season vs late in the season. Another factor is soil quality. This is pertinent because tomatoes that might have exserted stigmas for Joseph might not have them at all for someone in England. Or Vice Versa. And while this paper is from 1939 and many if not most varieties listed may no longer be available it might still be worth looking into to see if any are. Ponderosa (4) Greater Baltimore (3) Bonny Best (3) Beauty (2) Early Stone (2) Earliana (2) Early Jewel (2) naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43969294/PDF |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 27, 2016 12:36:57 GMT -5
Had a chat with Alan Kapuler and his daughter Dylana. They said the centiflors and "geranium kiss" have external stigmas, can be out breeders, attract many pollinators, make thousands of flowers.
I grew out red and yellow centiflor tomatoes a few years back, but i honestly didn't pay much attention. It's possible bees visited them. they have small fruit and they do have hundreds of flowers. Too many flowers probably. haha.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Mar 4, 2016 12:20:24 GMT -5
Do the wild crossed ones have speckles or is that just from environmental scarring? You said some of those taste better, how so. More complex flavors? The Wild Cross 5 plant has the "zebra stripe" pattern. Regarding the speckles: There were only two tomatoes in my garden last year with speckles on them. One plant from the wild crosses, and a variety which I have grown for years. I consider speckles to be part of it's phenotype. Both of the wild crosses that I thought were particularly tasty had green coloring around the gel-sack. They both seemed sweet, and had complex flavors. I'm delighted to report that most of the tomato photos from last growing season are now lost to me!!! I'll try to get more and better photos next growing season. I call my other tomato Brad that has speckles on the skin: The speckled ones seem interesting. Speckled, striped, and multicolored all together would be interesting. But some of those striped ones are striking as well. I've just discovered Frogsleap farm breeding ventures and their tomato breeding is amazing! They have many breeding lines that are amazing even though many of them are cherry size. The have an interesting one that has striking gold specks on a blue background. They also have an interesting one that they call Bengal Tiger that has blue stripes. But they have other striking striped and bicolor and multicolor ones as well. frogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2010/12/freckles.htmlfrogsleapfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/siberian-tiger-f4.htmlAs a side conversion, Joseph i think these are more like what people want when they as for "heirloom" tomatoes. What they really want is a tomato that does not resemble the pale red awful tasting perfectly round or oval ones from the store. What they want is a good sized slightly mishapen, multicolored good tasting tomato. For a red tomato, that Brad one looks pretty nice. |
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Post by DarJones on Mar 4, 2016 20:25:46 GMT -5
For most people buying plants from me, there is a specific flavor profile that qualifies as an "heirloom" tomato. It is generally described as rich, intense, makes your mouth sizzle, zingy, tomatoey, and similar adjectives. The one thing they don't want is commercial cardboard tomatoes as developed by most of the breeding programs over the last 50 years.
Druzba, Box Car Willie, Rutgers, Costoluto Genovese, and Crnkovic Yugoslavian are some of the varieties I recommend to people who want old fashioned tomato flavor.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 5, 2016 2:09:10 GMT -5
The one thing they don't want is commercial cardboard tomatoes as developed by most of the breeding programs over the last 50 years. I used to claim that my tomatoes taste horrid. It's just cause I don't much care for tomatoes. This fall, I tasted every tomato fruit before saving seeds from it. I found two varieties that fit the "cardboard" description. Oh my heck!!! They were super easy to eliminate from my tomato breeding projects! That grocery store taste is so dramatic and distinctive that it seems like fraud to claim that they are the same product as traditional tomatoes. This year, I am trialling lots of tomatoes with blotches, and stripes, and weird colors. Some of the seed packets claim marvelous tastes. There are a lot of 85 day tomatoes in the lot. Some years 70 day tomatoes are just starting to ripen fruit when killed by frost. My intent is to plant them anyway, crowded so that they don't take up much space, and to screen for anything that might be useful in the promiscuous pollination project, or that might be early enough to set lots of early fruit. It would certainly give an aura of "heirloom" to my tomatoes, even if many of the varieties are recently developed. Some of them might have enough seed available to participate in a frost/cold tolerance trial. |
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Post by reed on Mar 5, 2016 6:42:12 GMT -5
I'm very happy with two open flowered, heirloom aura-ed tomatoes from Joseph's "short season all kinds" mix. Very nice flavor, grew and produced in poor conditions. One in particular had the added benefit of strong thick stems and stood up above the weeds on it own. I assume they are hybrid or segregating hybrid. Anxious to grow them out in larger numbers this year and see what I get.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Mar 9, 2016 19:13:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the seeds Joseph! I'm looking forward to trying a few of your tomatoes this year. I will do my best to watch for 1.plants highly attractive to pollinators 2.Those with large flowers, open, and/or exerted stigmas. A few days ago I planted seeds from S. habrochaites and S. pennellii. They are both sprouting today. My intention is to use them as pollen donors to domestic tomatoes. I'd like to use DXX-M (Dx51-12 X Jagodka) as the mother of the crosses. I hope to incorporate self-incompatibility into my tomatoes. They may also introduce more open flower structures. I'm also currently experimenting with a growth-chamber so that I can create short-day conditions to induce them to flower early. Since plants mostly absorb blue and red wavelengths many of the premium grow lights use red/blue bulbs and/or LEDs. So i was curious to know how each spectrum affected plant growth. Apparently blue b itself can be used to keep plants short and stout, while more red light can simulate the ending of the season and therefore you can trick some plants into flowering early if you use a higher red light ratio. Perhaps you should consider adding red light to your growth-chamber and/or greenhouse. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Mar 21, 2016 1:06:26 GMT -5
I too don't like Sungold, but it is the smell that is repulsive to me. Sungold seems to be quite popular. I've never tried it though. I'm curious to know more about how it smells different than normal tomato plants. Does it really smell that bad? Honestly i think normal tomatoes smell kinda weird, not necessarily repulsive, but not really good. Is it just because you have been conditioned to like the smell of normal tomatoes that anything different you perceive as bad, or is it more a biological reaction? Is it because some of the wild genes are still present as sungold is reported to have a wild ancestor? Some of the original p20 tomatoes smelled kinda weird if i remember correctly. Perhaps they too retained some of those wild genes. I'm growing out some galapagense and cheesmaniae plants this year. I've read reports that some of them have a odor to them. Do they have the same odor as the sungold plants? Other people have said sungold smells different: forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2173039/smell-of-tomato-foliage |
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