|
|
Post by philagardener on Jun 23, 2016 12:34:43 GMT -5
The only tomatoes in this patch without open flowers is the disease resistant hybrid Mountain Merit, guess if I want those genes mixed in I'll have to learn to do it myself. That Pineapple looks pretty amazing! Wait until Joseph Lofthouse sees that! The disease resistance of MM F1 is encoded at multiple loci, so unless you grow large numbers and have a high disease presence, you will not be able to select for the strongest combinations. Really simple to transfer pollen from a closed Mountain Merit flower to any open stigma - just pick a mature MM flower and tear it apart. Since MM is Regular Leaf, if you cross it to a Potato Leaf mother (bag that flower before it opens, replace after hand pollination), any regular leafed seedlings in the F1 are your cross (and any potato leafed seedlings from self-pollination, since RL is dominant). The bag will keep any other pollen from the flower. Doesn't get much simpler than that, reed !  |
|
|
|
Post by philagardener on Jun 23, 2016 12:55:27 GMT -5
Couple of questions: 1.) Does flower type remain consistent on a plant? For example, if the first flower shows an open anther cone should this trait be expected on every flower that plant develops? 2.) Should flower type be expected to remain consistent between plants of the same commercial open pollinated variety or can they vary? For example, if I purchase a seed packet of Brandywine tomato seeds will all plants from those seeds produce the same flower type or will they vary between plants? 3.) Regarding modern commercial hybrid varieties (industrial varieties as Joseph calls them, which I find to be a very fitting term), do they all have closed up flowers or is it possible that a person might come across a unique plant that bears flowers more open to promiscuous pollination? In other words, should it be expected that all flowers of hybrid plants will always and consistently be closed up to promiscuous pollination? Thanks much for any responses. From my very limited experience it this endeavor I would say the answer to 1, is no. The answer to 2, is no. The answer to 3 is it depends, I don't think they are all the same. I'm curious to hear what the more experienced folks have to say about it. Theoretically, expression of the open flower/exerted stigma phenotype might be influenced by environmental conditions during floral development, such as humidity. The representation of an open flower phenotype in an OP line would depend in part on its genetic diversity. For traits that are not selected for/against, the underlying genetic diversity should still be there (if not eliminated by genetic drift/chance). Similarly, when two inbred OP lines are used to make an F1, if either population had some of these genes, then they would be in the F1 gene pool. However, if the phenotype is a simple recessive, those genes would have to be in both parental lines to show in the F1. If they were present in one line but not the other, then homozygous recessive individuals won't appear until the F2. |
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jun 23, 2016 14:08:10 GMT -5
From my very limited experience it this endeavor I would say the answer to 1, is no. The answer to 2, is no. The answer to 3 is it depends, I don't think they are all the same. I'm curious to hear what the more experienced folks have to say about it. Theoretically, expression of the open flower/exerted stigma phenotype might be influenced by environmental conditions during floral development, such as humidity. The representation of an open flower phenotype in an OP line would depend in part on its genetic diversity. For traits that are not selected for/against, the underlying genetic diversity should still be there (if not eliminated by genetic drift/chance). Similarly, when two inbred OP lines are used to make an F1, if either population had some of these genes, then they would be in the F1 gene pool. However, if the phenotype is a simple recessive, those genes would have to be in both parental lines to show in the F1. If they were present in one line but not the other, then homozygous recessive individuals won't appear until the F2. From the old papers i read (that i think i posted links to earlier in this thread) from the early 1900's or so, they seemed to suggest that exerted stigmas were mostly genetically controlled but partially influenced by environmental factors. So i would think they same could be true about open flowers as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 23, 2016 14:38:02 GMT -5
I observe environmental influences on flower structure. By that I mean that the shape of the flowers on a single plant changes during the growing season. One that was really obvious last year, is that some plants had highly exerted stigmas during a super hot-spell, but reverted to industrialized flowers when temperatures got back to normal.
However, with that being said. I also observe strong genetic influences in flower shape that remain pretty consistent during the growing season...
Regarding commercial strains: All the plants from a packet of seed tend towards the same flower structure.
Sometimes in a packet of heirloom seeds, I've seen different types of flowers from the same packet of seed. But mostly, a single packet of seed tends towards having the same types of flowers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 23, 2016 14:48:20 GMT -5
reed: Thanks for the photos!
|
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 23, 2016 14:49:53 GMT -5
Very interesting, I'm going with primarily genetic because most of the modern hybrids have industrial flowers. Most of the volunteers I'm letting grow have industrial flowers. Some of toomanyirons paste and Ox heart mixes have semi industrial flowers. BUT here are some more pictures of open flowers. F2 of Red Rose, normal leaf segregation. The previously pictured volunteer is also likely RR F2 because one is potato leaf and one isn't. I started to say they segregated 1/2 and 1/2 for leaf phenotype but they didn't, I planted 1/2 and 1/2 in a dehybridization patch, they segregated mostly normal. F1 is potato leaf.  I'm particularly excited about what I call Particularly Productive Rutgers. It showed up in the Rutgers patch a few seasons ago as more determinate and much more productive than the others and has remained so.  Here is what I'm calling Minnesota Stumpy, that toomanyirons and I have been discussing. Flowers are small and what I'd call semi open.  Then here is one from toomanyiron's paste mix. About half of them are semi open and the others like this.  Then one from TMI heart mix, again some are and some are not. *none are as tight closed as some of the hybrids.  And last but not least is Utah Heart. A big Ox heart type form Joseph's "early all kinds" mix. It grew last year under horrible conditions and held itself up above the weeds to make some nice fruits. Almost lost it when the woman made salsa and only left a couple puny ones on the plant.  |
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 23, 2016 22:36:15 GMT -5
For me the wild, random and continuing cross pollination is a major goal. Assuming environment is a factor, it can't be just environment or all tomatoes in the same environment would do it or not, depending on that environment. So, open flower is itself a trait to select for.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 23, 2016 23:26:25 GMT -5
As I understand it, the literature indicates that tomato hybrids tend to produce about 50% higher yields than the highest yielding parent, and to be earlier than either parent. So, therefore, it seems to me that a genetically diverse population of tomatoes that were maintained by landrace methods, would tend towards having open flowers... Because, the varieties that were most likely to cross, would end up producing offspring that were earlier and more productive. Therefore, the farmer would be more likely to save seeds from the hybrid plants. Therefore, promiscuous pollination traits would tend to be favored during selection... What a mix up of cause/effect!
My environment tends to be pretty similar from year to year. On many varieties that I grow, I have never observed an "open/loose" flower trait. I notice the most variation due to environment on varieties that are sorta open: The flower characteristics wobble around an average. Then, some varieties are always wide open. So during this year's selection, I'm aiming towards heavy selection for the most open flowers. This might finally be the year that I mostly stop growing varieties with industrialized flowers...
For what it's worth, one of the plants that I'm growing this year, and used as a pollen donor, ended up being a natural hybrid. It had open flowers last year. This year, the flowers are even more open, and it picked up the red-fruit trait from somewhere...
|
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 24, 2016 9:20:39 GMT -5
Interesting that two of two of your's that did really well last year both have open flowers, I wonder if they also did in your garden or if you just selected for the trait and my environment allowed it to express more. I have another from your seeds I called red juicer because a single plant filled a five gallon bucket in one picking. I didn't notice it's flowers last year cause it was in a tomato / weed jungle and I didn't pay it much attention till I noticed a big pile of red. I have twenty of it's offspring in a crowded patch similar to my dehybridization patches. I got them out late and they haven't bloomed yet but should know soon if they also have open flowers. Whatever Joseph Lofthouse and toomanyirons have been doing with their tomato orgies is working well for me! |
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 24, 2016 10:00:57 GMT -5
Yes I use software to crop but not enlarge the images. You can shrink a digital image without losing resolution but you can't enlarge it. I set my camera to the highest resolution which I think is 4000 x 4000 pixels. I focus the camera best I can on the flower so that it fills as much as possible of the 4000 x 4000 image. Then I download and crop out just the flower and shrink it to the size I'm gonna use, in the posted images that's 350 pixels wide. Bright but not direct sun works best for me, direct sun washes out the detail, and make sure the sun is behind you.
It's a general pain in the rump and I probably take five for every one good enough to use. That's why I don't post as many as I would like too.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 24, 2016 10:36:10 GMT -5
Tomato weather has been great. I planted them out on schedule about June 5th. Some were planted out a few weeks earlier and avoided frost, so those are doing awesome! We didn't get a frost this year for the summer solstice. About 3 weeks ago I harvested fruits from the first cross of a domestic tomato, Brad, and LA1777, Solanum habrochaites. Two seedlings have germinated so far from the cross. Brad is typically my earliest tomato that matures a day or two earlier than Jagodka. About 4 days ago I planted seeds from crosses between 3 other domestic tomatoes and LA1777. It's getting late in the season to expect ripe fruits before fall, so I'm planting them in pots with the intention of growing them in the greenhouse during the fall for a bit of season extension. There are a few more crosses that look like they took, but haven't ripened fruits yet. I've identified a few more plants with open flowers among the descendants of crosses I made between my favorite varieties and varieties with open flowers. I also have patches of wild tomato species growing. Some in isolation. Some as mixed species. About 3 weeks ago, I planted about 300 tomato plants into the garden, many of them segregating hybrids, I'm expecting to screen them for open flowers, and other traits like prominent floral displays. Solanum peruvianum has an amazing floral display. I hope to capture photos soon. So for the plants that are currently in the garden, I'm expecting within the next few weeks to come up with a plan for what crosses I want to make, and then start making crosses. Hmm. Photography of tomato flowers? What a pain!!! I take dozens of photos for each one that is good enough quality to post. I got a digital camera with a "macro" setting and "auto focus" at the thrift store. Best lighting conditions are on a cloudy day, or immediately after sunset. Cause the contrast between bright sunlight and shadow is just too great to get a good looking photo with my camera. Sometimes, I'll use my body to cast a shadow over the whole field of view before photography. No flash on closeups. I often end up cropping photos, but not enlarging. Brad fruit, pollinated with LA1777. Two seedlings from this fruit are currently growing in the greenhouse. Germination rate was around 10%. In the domestic/wild crosses, the number of seeds produced per fruit has also been low. I'm tickled to get two plants out of the effort!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 25, 2016 2:02:10 GMT -5
I went back and re-read the whole thread, interesting the discussion and pictures of bumblebees on the tomatoes. I have lots of them and they are completely disinterested in the tomatoes, they prefer white clover, radishes, onions and gladiolas. Honey bees are almost exclusively on the clover. Wasps, sweat bees of various colors and sizes like carrots as do ants and tiny flies. The tiny flies also like melons. A similar crew likes thyme and oregano. That's why I was encouraged to see the critters in this picture. The only other thing I have seen on tomatoes this year is another slightly larger and more golden colored bee.  Last year after most everything had stopped blooming I did see bumblebees doing little buzzzzz dances on tomatoes and they didn't care if the flowers were open or not. I failed in my attempt to get a video of it and it was too late in the season for anything to come from it. |
|
|
|
Post by steev on Jun 26, 2016 22:26:53 GMT -5
That's a pretty bee.
I noticed the first cardoon flower open today, with three bumblebees and a honeybee just wallowing in it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jun 27, 2016 7:07:35 GMT -5
Solanum pennellii, LYC 1831.. Woot!  |
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jun 27, 2016 14:17:01 GMT -5
I watched a small iridescent bee, similar but smaller than the one in the picture exploring a flower this morning. The flower was semi open with an exerted stigma but mostly fused anther cone. It explored the base of the cone for two or three minutes and then attempted to enter the cone past the stigma. It paused on the tip of the flower and seemingly looked at me as if to say, "isn't there something you can do about this"? Then it moved to a more open flower and again first explored the base before crawling inside. "Don't ya know it's a hassle to have to crawl inside"? It might have said.
Grown man sitting on the ground watching bees crawl around on flowers and imagining what they might be thinking. Not sure what to make of that.
|
|
