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Post by darrenabbey on Nov 26, 2014 13:22:51 GMT -5
The stereotypical Solanum nigrum plant produces small black berries and is readily available, from online vendors or in my back yard. There are varieties with other colored berries: I've been looking for a seed source of the red type, but have only been finding images of it. Does anyone have experience with these? Edit: The red ones are sometimes referred to as "Makoi" or "Red Makoi". |
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 26, 2014 15:34:24 GMT -5
I've got some seed for the orange one (from Baker Creek)and it is one of the things I may plant this spring
I think the red one is used quite a bit in Ayuvedic medicine; maybe you can find it that way. I don't have any myself currertly. However ever since I found out about the red one, I HAVE tried to save any dried Solanum berries I find when I sort through Indian stuff, on the off chance I get lucky (unfortunaltely my discovery of the existence of the red one came long after the improved cleaning techniques for foodstuffs meant the amount of nightshade berries I would find in hunting went way down. So far No luck (the last time I planted found nightshade seeds I got a mix of Solanum americanum and some sort of small Psyalis. The berries are brown when I find them, so it's not like I can figure it out without planting the seeds (you can't count on found berries being fully ripe.)
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Post by darrenabbey on Nov 26, 2014 16:05:00 GMT -5
The photos of the red form of Solanum nigrum seem to be from central Africa and India. This suggests to me that they might be widespread in the old world, even if not in the westernized components of the various cultures.
I've only found references to S. dulcamara (Bittersweet Nightshade; red-orange somewhat toxic berries) in Ayuvedic medicine. I have seen the two confused, even when the black form of S. nigrum was being discussed.
Do you have a blog where you talk about your methods and finds? In relation to this, what product (and where from) do you most often find solanum seeds?
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 26, 2014 16:31:42 GMT -5
I don't blog but I have a thread here about it alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/7698/seed-hunt-report-2014. Though it's been a while since I updated. It's a pretty meagre time of year, hunt-wise* and since the reports were getting a little repetitive, I took a break until when and if I find something worth reporting. As for where, it's varied over time. I used to find berries from time to time in Chinese rice bean packages, but the growers and packers have gotten much better equipment so finds there (of anything) are a lot rarer, and I don't think I've seen one there for a couple of years. I think the americanum and Psyalis seed came from some little packages of Coriander I picked up at a bodega near me, but which I think were originally grown in Thailand, based on the shape of the actual coriander seed (and the presence of two dried ladybugs in the bags of a species I THINK is Asian) Off hand, I'd say the best place to look currently would still be coriander seed, but the stuff from India, not Thailand. The Thai stuff seems to no longer have it, plus there is an issue of what else is in there (there's a Thai brand of whole coriander running around whose contaminants include hemp seeds.) The amount of stuff in there too has gone down, but there is still more there than anywhere else. Pretty much any company that sells to the Ethnic Indian market will have more or less the same sort of things. Remember to get the Indian stuff (oval seeds, not round), The Moroccan coriander does not, as I recall have solanum berries (or much of anything else all that interesting). *For the record I just came back from this weeks hunt, but my best find was one speckled soup pea. Besides that it was the same junk I find every week (few black and tan rice beans, few black cowpeas, some small mungs etc.) |
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Nov 26, 2014 16:40:31 GMT -5
I do have a yellow-fruiting edible S. villosum 'golden pearls' that has small berries, but they are tasty. Looks a lot like S. nigrum, but it's more hairy and has a more 'soft' look.
Less and smaller berries than the 'American garden huckleberries' I also had (S. melanocerasum), but those are really bad tastewise.
I was looking for the 'red Makoi' online some time ago and didn't find much. If anyone has it and can send it to Belgium I'd be very interested...
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Post by darrenabbey on Nov 26, 2014 16:47:05 GMT -5
I'll have to start looking for the little Indian markets I know are around.
The most interesting thing I've found (without doing the sort of directed hunt you do) was a full seed pod of Roselle, in a batch of dried calyxes for making tea. I had previously ordered seeds for the plant, so I now have two varieties to work with!
I was pondering on what I would do with the left-over coriander… but really, the prices at some of the ethnic markets are low enough that any interesting seed finds (especially if I find the red S. nigrum) would be well worth the cost, even if I didn't use any coriander at all.
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Post by darrenabbey on Nov 26, 2014 16:51:45 GMT -5
I do have a yellow-fruiting edible S. villosum 'golden pearls' that has small berries, but they are tasty. Looks a lot like S. nigrum, but it's more hairy and has a more 'soft' look. I wonder if S. villosum will hybridize with S. nigrum. If so, I will have to get seeds for it, as it would be useful in the breeding project I'm thinking of. Less and smaller berries than the 'American garden huckleberries' I also had (S. melanocerasum), but those are really bad tastewise. I have heard various reports of the taste. I haven't grown enough to know if this is due to different people preferring different tastes, or if some of the plants just taste much worse than others. I find the taste of the local S. nigrum types to be pleasantly floral. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 26, 2014 17:17:06 GMT -5
I'll have to start looking for the little Indian markets I know are around. The most interesting thing I've found (without doing the sort of directed hunt you do) was a full seed pod of Roselle, in a batch of dried calyxes for making tea. I had previously ordered seeds for the plant, so I now have two varieties to work with! I was pondering on what I would do with the left-over coriander… but really, the prices at some of the ethnic markets are low enough that any interesting seed finds (especially if I find the red S. nigrum) would be well worth the cost, even if I didn't use any coriander at all. I personally toss them in a big pot. Any that manage to germinate become additional cilantro. Any that don't become a very light and porous potting medium My "best" (or more accurately "scariest" find was a rosary pea in a bag of senna (scary because of how poisonous the damn things are, and this was a product you were supposed to eat (well.... drink) There is always value in trying to find the odd "overripe" items in products. That's why I have some seedheads for mantico ( a kind of medicinal Latin American pepper) (at least I hope they are seedheads, they could just be dried down flower clusters). |
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Post by trixtrax on Nov 27, 2014 2:06:46 GMT -5
Speaking of the American garden huckleberries, I believe Burbank hybridized S. villosum with S. nigrum. I have heard from a few people that various S. nigrum species easily cross, definitely worth a try.
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Nov 27, 2014 4:33:22 GMT -5
The Solanum nigrum complex seems to be very, eh, complex... I don't know about hybridizing between the different species but it's probably a possibility that might give interesting results, especially with other colors. There is a question about edibility though, crossing them might bring back higher levels of solanin alkaloids. Although if potato experts are able to taste solanin I suppose it must be able to find it in berries too by taste?
I did have something labelled 'Solanum x burbankii' last year too, and it looked exactly like our native European S. nigrum. (Which I may taste one berry of, but I don't trust any Solanum that I did not receive as an edible strain...) The berries were quite small but the taste was okay and not that far from the S. villosum. It might have been misslabelled somewhere along the way and just be an edible strain of S. nigrum?
The American 'garden huckleberries' (S. melanocerasum) that I have are different, with big erect glossy berries that never get sweet. Terrible taste, and only useful after cooking with a lot of sugar and some lemon juice until you taste more sugar and lemon juice than berries.
Local S. nigrum and the supposed S. x burbankii get hanging berries that turn to dull black, and not shiny at all, and there are other differences. I haven't tasted any S. nigrum berry that was as bad as the American garden huckleberries, so I don't know why the strain I have is even in cultivation, except that it's big and has a lot of big berries..
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 27, 2014 7:18:01 GMT -5
Another one worth considering is S. opacum, the Australian Greenberry Nightshade. I grew that one once, and the berries; while tiny, did have a nice tomato flavor. Though I only ate a tiny amount of them (S. opacum looks almost identical to S. americanum, which grows wild as a weed here. And since a ripe opacum berry (edible) and an unripe americanum berry (poisonous) are basically indistinguishable, I always had a sort of Russian Roulette feeling in popping the former in my mouth so I didn't do it often. )
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 27, 2014 7:28:53 GMT -5
I received golden pearls that turned out to be black berried S. nigrum - darn it. I've never heard of the red one. I'll have to look that up. Common S complex that grows weedy around here is quite good.
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Post by darrenabbey on Nov 27, 2014 12:23:20 GMT -5
The Solanum nigrum complex seems to be very, eh, complex... I don't know about hybridizing between the different species but it's probably a possibility that might give interesting results, especially with other colors. There is a question about edibility though, crossing them might bring back higher levels of solanin alkaloids. Although if potato experts are able to taste solanin I suppose it must be able to find it in berries too by taste? I tend to think of the entire S. nigrum complex as being essentially, S. nigrum. There is lots of diversity, but limited evidence for distinct species. The solanine is definitely something you can taste, so I haven't been too worried about it. S. dulcamara has a high amount of solanine in the berries, so you can easily get experience with what the toxin tastes like. (Taste a little bit of the juice, then rinse and spit. You'll be fine.) I did have something labelled 'Solanum x burbankii' last year too, and it looked exactly like our native European S. nigrum. (Which I may taste one berry of, but I don't trust any Solanum that I did not receive as an edible strain...) The berries were quite small but the taste was okay and not that far from the S. villosum. It might have been misslabelled somewhere along the way and just be an edible strain of S. nigrum? There is some debate around Burbank's "wonderberry", regarding if it was something he bred or just found in the wild. Mislabelling and uncertain provenance seems to be rampant in regard to S. nigrum plants. The American 'garden huckleberries' (S. melanocerasum) that I have are different, with big erect glossy berries that never get sweet. Terrible taste, and only useful after cooking with a lot of sugar and some lemon juice until you taste more sugar and lemon juice than berries. Local S. nigrum and the supposed S. x burbankii get hanging berries that turn to dull black, and not shiny at all, and there are other differences. I haven't tasted any S. nigrum berry that was as bad as the American garden huckleberries, so I don't know why the strain I have is even in cultivation, except that it's big and has a lot of big berries.. The large "blackberries" sold in grocery stores have the same lack of appeal (and confusion) for me. I suspect I will still get seeds for it, as my tastes may differ or I could use it in hybridizing. |
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Post by philagardener on Nov 27, 2014 13:25:16 GMT -5
There is some debate around Burbank's "wonderberry", regarding if it was something he bred or just found in the wild. Mislabelling and uncertain provenance seems to be rampant in regard to S. nigrum plants. From what I have read, that could be said of many of Burbank's creations as well. |
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Post by flowerweaver on Nov 27, 2014 21:20:20 GMT -5
There's a good story about Burbank and the wonderberry in the book The Fascinating World of the Nightshades 1987 by Charles Bixler Heiser. As I recall, he offered an outrageous sum for anyone who could prove the wonderberry was something other than what he said it was. It seems someone did have evidence, and he refused to pay up.
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