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Post by Marches on Jan 29, 2015 17:18:56 GMT -5
But labrusca traits are almost always dominant and are hard to breed out, so usually the grapes are as I described whether natural hybrid or not. A dominant trait would be easier to breed out than a recessive one, but I take your phrase to mean there are LOTS of dominant traits which would then make finding the combination of recessive traits favored for table-grapes problematic. Fortunately, I (and others apparently) don't mind this sort of task as a hobby. It makes them easily identifiable, as you say - getting the desired mix of traits and getting rid of some of the undesirable ones which tend to be dominant isn't easy. Labrusca hybrids tend to have soft flesh and skins that are thick and astringent and slip away. And in wine grapes they have flavours that wine drinkers don't usually tend to like. Most older American hybrid grapes were crosses with labrusca and breeders worked to minimize these negative traits. But Vitis labrusca is disease resistant, fairly hardy and adaptable and some of its flavours are nice in table / eating grapes. But the "French hybrid" grapes are generally better for breeding with. These have the disease resistance and hardiness, but are very close to classic European wine and eating grapes (Vitis vinifera) in fruit quality. These were bred in France using American species, but used a mixture of different species and avoided too much Vitis labrusca. They usually contain a lot of Vitis rupestris though which has good resistance and hardiness but no dominant bad traits in terms of fruit quality. Hybrids can have vinifera-like fruit in F1s. Vitis vinifera (the European grape) is the one used for most wines and commercially grown table grapes btw. I tend to favour working with French hybrids here in England. Disease pressures are higher in North America though as America has great diversity of Vitis and so its pests and diseases. Some resistant hybrids from Europe aren't resistant in America. Another species (Vitis amurensis) used for breeding downy mildew resistance in Europe is totally susceptible to it under American conditions. So it's basically about breeding for your climate and conditions. People are even breeding grapes to grow in Quebec and Manitoba. |
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Post by blackox on Jan 30, 2015 20:38:49 GMT -5
I think that you might have hit the nail on the head with Vitis labrusca. From what I can see now/remember everything seems right on - leaves, tendril arrangement on vines, etc.
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Post by blackox on Aug 31, 2015 12:09:53 GMT -5
Seeing as our past landlord has taken the stretch of grape-infested lowland forest with the rest of his property, I haven't collected any grape seed. I'll scout my new location and alert you if I find anything.
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Post by Marches on Sept 1, 2015 3:19:24 GMT -5
Seeing as our past landlord has taken the stretch of grape-infested lowland forest with the rest of his property, I haven't collected any grape seed. I'll scout my new location and alert you if I find anything. There are many professional and private grape breeders in the US and Central Europe. America contains most of the resistant, hardy species used in breeding. Vitis riparia is the most widespread and most hardy and is very disease resistant and has many locally adapted forms. It even makes it as far north as the treeline in Manitoba before the tundra starts. Most hybrid wine grape breeding in the US seems to be concentrated on crossing existing hybrids with Vitis riparia to make very hardy wine varieties such as Frontenac. Vitis riparia has its own problems such as small grapes and high acidity, but these aren't as much a problem in wine grape breeding. Most eastern US table grape breeders use Vitis labrusca based hybrids because they have large berries suitable for eating and when well bred can have nice fruity flavours and combine very well with muscat type grapes. The easiest species for hybridising is probably Vitis rupestris. When crossed with the European grape Vitis vinifera one can get a fairly hardy, disease resistant variety suitable for wine or eating in one generation in many cases. Unfortunately it's rare in the wild now though. Vitis riparia can sometimes throw out good first generation crosses too but it's not the norm. Vitis riparia and labrusca are found pretty much everywhere in the eastern US and the American grape breeders will often fix you up with seeds of the common species or some crosses they've made with them. And you can even order Vitis riparia seeds in bulk online. With wild grapes it's worth noting you get male and female vines though. Males aren't usually used in breeding. When you cross a female of a species with Vitis vinifera (European grape) you get a mixture of female and hermaphrodite (self fertile) offspring. I received 3 lots of riparia seeds from North America from breeders from Quebec, Illinois and South Dakota and they're thriving here in England, it's a very adaptable species with a huge range. If you want I can put you in touch with the North American grape breeders group, it'll give you some ideas and they'll help you get started. |
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Post by reed on Sept 1, 2015 10:26:13 GMT -5
I don't really have much of a clue what I'm doing but I love the notion of grape breeding. I envision planting all kinds of all over my place and up and down the roads in hopes they just go wild. I planted my twenty new vines this spring of several kinds and they took off so good I let most of them make just one cluster to taste and for seeds. Some of the seeds are in the ground under a board like I did for apples and pears last year and it worked for them. More seeds are in cell packs in the bottom of the refrigerator. I didn't try any purposeful crossing but I'm sure they are all hybrid so hope to get lots of new kinds. Although the berries were small my favorite for flavor was a wine grape called America. Sunbelt was also good, well no use listing individually, I liked them all. They all had way less rot disease than my established Concord and Niagara. My selection criteria when I bought them was for disease resistance, cold hardiness and on their own roots. A lot of our actual wild grapes are hanging in clusters right now and have been going for walks tasting and collecting the seeds.
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Post by Marches on Sept 1, 2015 12:14:11 GMT -5
I don't really have much of a clue what I'm doing but I love the notion of grape breeding. I envision planting all kinds of all over my place and up and down the roads in hopes they just go wild. I planted my twenty new vines this spring of several kinds and they took off so good I let most of them make just one cluster to taste and for seeds. Some of the seeds are in the ground under a board like I did for apples and pears last year and it worked for them. More seeds are in cell packs in the bottom of the refrigerator. I didn't try any purposeful crossing but I'm sure they are all hybrid so hope to get lots of new kinds. Although the berries were small my favorite for flavor was a wine grape called America. Sunbelt was also good, well no use listing individually, I liked them all. They all had way less rot disease than my established Concord and Niagara. My selection criteria when I bought them was for disease resistance, cold hardiness and on their own roots. A lot of our actual wild grapes are hanging in clusters right now and have been going for walks tasting and collecting the seeds. Well if you're letting them do the work themselves it's pretty easy since they hybridise freely and are wind pollinated. Only thing with "America" and a lot of southern hybrids (believe that one is a Munson variety) is they're hard to root and tend to pass that trait on very dominantly so if you get good plants from it they'll be harder to send to people. A lot of good grape varieties from the south aren't as widespread as they otherwise should be becausebof this. It does breed out eventually though. |
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Post by reed on Nov 13, 2015 5:55:58 GMT -5
I have some that have branches low down on the trunk. I'v seen grape vines root when they touch the ground so I put a rock on top of some to hold them down and keep them in contact with it. They all just kept growing so next spring I will move the rocks and see it they rooted. If so I will cut them from the main vine and dig them up. I'v read that that works. Most of the seeds I have planted are from America. I have three surviving plants from the cuttings, don't remember right off which they are and five each from my old vines. Started with probably 100 but not bad I think for a first try.
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Post by kazedwards on Dec 6, 2015 13:40:35 GMT -5
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Post by blueadzuki on Dec 6, 2015 14:24:28 GMT -5
Looks more like bittersweet to me
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coppice
gardener
gardening curmudgeon
Posts: 149
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Post by coppice on Dec 6, 2015 15:01:38 GMT -5
Um thats bittersweet not grape.
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Post by philagardener on Dec 6, 2015 15:40:28 GMT -5
Same family (Celastraceae) as Bittersweet but that climber looks to me like Wintercreeper, Euonymus fortunei. Both Bittersweet and Wintercreeper are invasive plants and the birds spread those seeds to new locations very easily. They are not good for the tree and eventually can lead to its downfall (literally).
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Post by kazedwards on Dec 8, 2015 17:35:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the help guys!
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