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Post by reed on Jan 22, 2015 17:33:45 GMT -5
What are some good grape varieties just for eating, juicing and jelly? I'm looking to get some from Double A Vineyard www.doubleavineyards.com/c-1-buy-grapevines.aspxand like everything else there is lot of choices. I already have Concord, Niagra and a red one that all get bunch rot badly so I am looking at ones with disease resistance. Some I like the description of are America, Bluebell, Caco, King of the North and Lorelei. I am in zone 6 but looking more for zone 3 - 4 ratings. Also they have 1-1 grade and 1-x grade. They are both one year starts but the 1-x has more roots, quite a bit more in the picture they show. I'm not sure that is really better because it makes it harder to spread the roots nicely when you plant. I don't think a lot of bunched up or tangled roots is really a good thing. Even though it might decrease chances of dying in the first year it reduces growth later on. Any body have advice on this? |
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Post by 12540dumont on Jan 22, 2015 23:27:32 GMT -5
Reed, I don't I think you should look around and see what other folks are growing for grapes. I've had pretty good luck from folks here doing their pruning. Mine is already done. If you still need help shoot me an email in December. We prune in mid January.
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Post by Marches on Jan 28, 2015 16:22:38 GMT -5
What are some good grape varieties just for eating, juicing and jelly? I'm looking to get some from Double A Vineyard www.doubleavineyards.com/c-1-buy-grapevines.aspxand like everything else there is lot of choices. I already have Concord, Niagra and a red one that all get bunch rot badly so I am looking at ones with disease resistance. Some I like the description of are America, Bluebell, Caco, King of the North and Lorelei. I am in zone 6 but looking more for zone 3 - 4 ratings. Also they have 1-1 grade and 1-x grade. They are both one year starts but the 1-x has more roots, quite a bit more in the picture they show. I'm not sure that is really better because it makes it harder to spread the roots nicely when you plant. I don't think a lot of bunched up or tangled roots is really a good thing. Even though it might decrease chances of dying in the first year it reduces growth later on. Any body have advice on this? The Arkansas varieties are rot and disease resistant and some of the best quality seedless American hybrid grapes. Jupiter is supposed to be particularly good. They're hardy enough for zone 6, zones 3 and 4 might be pushing it. Somerset seedless would be better for colder zones and is very high quality and disease resistant but bunches are small. |
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Post by reed on Jan 28, 2015 17:49:05 GMT -5
Marches, thanks for the input. I saw your post about breeding grapes, I'll be watching closely as I am interested in learning about that. I don't think where I'm ordering from has Jupiter or Somerset but they have an Arkansas bred one called SunBelt, it is on my list and rated to zone 4. I'm also getting: Caco King of the North Lorelei Marquette Kay Grey Edelweiss Alpenglow America Bluebell They are all zone 3 or 4 and some are multipurpose, some are wine grapes. They are around $8.00 US apiece but if you get 50 it goes down to around $3.00 each. I'm going to pot most of them up and sell them at the farmer's market.
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Post by Marches on Feb 15, 2015 17:10:41 GMT -5
Marches, thanks for the input. I saw your post about breeding grapes, I'll be watching closely as I am interested in learning about that. I don't think where I'm ordering from has Jupiter or Somerset but they have an Arkansas bred one called SunBelt, it is on my list and rated to zone 4. I'm also getting: Caco King of the North Lorelei Marquette Kay Grey Edelweiss Alpenglow America Bluebell They are all zone 3 or 4 and some are multipurpose, some are wine grapes. They are around $8.00 US apiece but if you get 50 it goes down to around $3.00 each. I'm going to pot most of them up and sell them at the farmer's market. I'm planning to sell rooted cuttings of good seedless eating varieties suited to the climate when I've trialed enough varieties. Offer them at cost price (so very cheap) because I'm not after making money from them (at least initially), getting suitable varieties popularized and people interested in growing their own grapes is more my aim. As it exists at the moment the garden centres here mostly offer poor varieties unsuited to eating or our climate so people don't bother much growing grapes and when they do they get disappointed. I had to do a lot of research and import a lot of varieties to get where I am now and I'm hoping to breed the first new English varieties in 100 years, but this time not for the greenhouse but suitable for growing outside in every garden alongside the very common usual apple and raspberry varieties. |
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Post by mountaindweller on Feb 17, 2015 17:56:52 GMT -5
I find some wine varieties are just as good for eating and often have a more interesting flavour, I like Dornfelder (red) and I have a Siegerrebe (white) which tastes nice. backyardnursery.freeforums.net/ |
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Post by reed on Feb 17, 2015 22:37:14 GMT -5
I don't see why, just because they are advertised for wine use they shouldn't be good to eat too. I'll certainly give them a try. I put my order in for fifty vines. I got the 1-1 grade cause they were cheaper and I think they might be easier to plant. Less tangling and less pruning of roots. The kinds I got are:
King of the North - zone 3 primary use juice, jelly, table, dessert ---------------12 vines
Marquette - zone 3 primary use wine ---------------2 vines
Alpenglow - zone 4 primary use wine ---------------2 vines
Edelweiss - zone 4 Primary Use: Juice,Jelly,Table,Basket,Dessert,Wine ---------2 vines
Sunbelt - zone 4 Primary Use: Juice,Jelly ----------------------20 vines
America - zone 4 primary use table, basket ----------------------10 vines
Lorelei - zone 4 Primary Use: Table,Basket,Dessert,Wine ----------------------2 vines
They are all picked largely because they are supposed to be at least somewhat disease resistant. I want learn to reproduce them from cuttings and even more to grow them from seed and cross them with each other and my favorite wild vines that grow around here. The one called Lorelei says it may need a pollinator, I'm not 100% sure what they mean by may but I figure it may mean it will be easy to use it as the mother side of a cross.
I'm gonna plant two of each one and hope to sell the rest at the farmers market and get at least some of the money back. Two of them are under licence to the universities that bred them but I'm gonna try to sell cuttings from the others in the future. I have my first try experiment of doing that going on right now with some Concord and Himrod.
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Post by steev on Feb 18, 2015 1:16:27 GMT -5
In my understanding, "wine" grapes are mostly smaller and therefore seedier than "table" grapes ( which are nowadays mostly required to be seedless; quelle dommage! ), "wine" grapes are also mostly less sweet; perhaps more flavorful. A grape is a grape; what you do with it is up to you. Some people know what to do with a particular variety of grape to produce a product of a particular character; fine by me.
It seems to me that there is a multiplicity of grapes, which can be eaten fresh ( table grapes ), dried ( raisins ), or fermented ( wine ), depending on the character of the grape and the taste of the growers ( and their market ).
I admit to being committed to growing Flame Tokay, if only because the birds' having cleaned out my whole crop last year. the week before I thought to harvest, confirms my opinion that those are fine table grapes.
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Post by Marches on Feb 18, 2015 11:04:46 GMT -5
I find some wine varieties are just as good for eating and often have a more interesting flavour, I like Dornfelder (red) and I have a Siegerrebe (white) which tastes nice. backyardnursery.freeforums.net/I have Seigerrebe too. It's a good dual purpose grape and one of the earliest here. Can ripen in august in a warm year, which is extremely early for grapes in England (most of the early varieties ripen mid September). I don't see why, just because they are advertised for wine use they shouldn't be good to eat too. I'll certainly give them a try. I put my order in for fifty vines. I got the 1-1 grade cause they were cheaper and I think they might be easier to plant. Less tangling and less pruning of roots. The kinds I got are: King of the North - zone 3 primary use juice, jelly, table, dessert ---------------12 vines Marquette - zone 3 primary use wine ---------------2 vines Alpenglow - zone 4 primary use wine ---------------2 vines Edelweiss - zone 4 Primary Use: Juice,Jelly,Table,Basket,Dessert,Wine ---------2 vines Sunbelt - zone 4 Primary Use: Juice,Jelly ----------------------20 vines America - zone 4 primary use table, basket ----------------------10 vines Lorelei - zone 4 Primary Use: Table,Basket,Dessert,Wine ----------------------2 vines They are all picked largely because they are supposed to be at least somewhat disease resistant. I want learn to reproduce them from cuttings and even more to grow them from seed and cross them with each other and my favorite wild vines that grow around here. The one called Lorelei says it may need a pollinator, I'm not 100% sure what they mean by may but I figure it may mean it will be easy to use it as the mother side of a cross. I'm gonna plant two of each one and hope to sell the rest at the farmers market and get at least some of the money back. Two of them are under licence to the universities that bred them but I'm gonna try to sell cuttings from the others in the future. I have my first try experiment of doing that going on right now with some Concord and Himrod. In my understanding, "wine" grapes are mostly smaller and therefore seedier than "table" grapes ( which are nowadays mostly required to be seedless; quelle dommage! ), "wine" grapes are also mostly less sweet; perhaps more flavorful. A grape is a grape; what you do with it is up to you. Some people know what to do with a particular variety of grape to produce a product of a particular character; fine by me. It seems to me that there is a multiplicity of grapes, which can be eaten fresh ( table grapes ), dried ( raisins ), or fermented ( wine ), depending on the character of the grape and the taste of the growers ( and their market ). I admit to being committed to growing Flame Tokay, if only because the birds' having cleaned out my whole crop last year. the week before I thought to harvest, confirms my opinion that those are fine table grapes. Yes, many "wine grapes" do make good dual purpose grapes, particularly muscats and high sugar and low acid varieties. In parts of Europe they made it taboo to eat grapes destined for wine and a myth goes round that vineyards would get pickers to stick out their tongues after picking Pinot noir to see if they'd eaten any. So they're certainly edible. Some taste very nice eaten (such as Black Hamburg - it's a wine grape in Germany but very much a table grape in England), others aren't very nice (usually the more acid varieties). Grapes destined to be wine varieties were bred for thicker skins and berry size and seed content wasnt important, so they often have a lot of seeds and small berries. Table grapes were bred to be thinner skinned with smaller, fewer seeds or none at all and to have a much larger berry and low acid content although not necessarily high sugars. My gripe with the garden centres is most of the varieties sold here aren't very good for eating and barely ripen anyway (making them less palatable). Some varieties I've seen described as outdoor vines ripen as late as November if at all most years (November is when it starts getting cold and frosty here and trees are mostly dormant by then for an idea). And yes, most people now will insist on seedless table grapes. So I'm aiming to breed mostly seedless varieties. My friends in the states that sell grapes say people insist on seedless there, they'll only touch seeded ones if the flavour is something special (like Swenson red). I expect it's the same here. Of course I'm not discarding good seeded offspring though, just it's not my focus. |
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Post by reed on Feb 18, 2015 11:53:42 GMT -5
I have read about several other interesting sounding varieties but limited myself to this nursery to get the volume price. I think that is true of people wanting seedless but the nursery selection were either too warm zone or not disease resistant enough. I will probably look at adding some of them too later on.
I might have mentioned that where I live (according to the tourism people) is the birthplace of wine making in America. Maybe it was but if so it was a short lived venture. Never the less they advertise it that way and have a big "Wine Festival" each year. There is one winery about ten years old that buys concentrate in barrels.
I think I might take the extras potted up to town during the festival and put out a sign "Souvenir Grapes Vines" or something to that effect and see how it goes.
If starting from cuttings is as easy as I have read it is, I'll use my vines to expand my plantings and make lots of new ones to sell. AND get to play with crossing and growing from seed.
[add] I forgot, the original settlers / winemakers were Swiss so the varieties Alpenglo and Edelweiss should fit right in.
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Post by mountaindweller on Feb 18, 2015 18:16:05 GMT -5
I think it depends what you want. If you want to sell grapes tastes change and since we had seedless for a very long time people might ask the more taster seedy varieties once again or might not. High sugar content will always be good as well as earliness. If you want to sell plants you want exotic and rare varieties which perform well in your climate and taste well. I think that most people prefer dual purpose varieties since garden centers sell table varieties and have little choice if at all in wine grapes. You want a lot of variety, who does not like choice? backyardnursery.freeforums.net/ |
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coppice
gardener
gardening curmudgeon
Posts: 149
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Post by coppice on Feb 20, 2015 12:13:05 GMT -5
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Post by reed on Feb 24, 2015 4:35:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure how my first try at grape cuttings is going. Two or thee weeks ago when it was it was 65 0 outside I trimmed my grape vines. I chopped up the cuttings and just stuck most of them in the ground to see what happens. I took ten of each kind inside and put them in plastic above the bathroom heater, intending to return them outside but then the temp went to -15 and snowed. They haven't developed any roots but the goofy things have started growing. Now I doubt if it would be a good idea to put them outside even if it does thaw out cause I'm sure we will get more alternating warm / cold spells before spring.  I have some pots of sand and compost ready, I think before I leave for work I will bring some inside and put them behind the wood stove (the woman leaves before I do  ). When I get home I'll pot them up, remove the flower buds and put them by the East window in the unheated room upstairs. Does anyone think they have a chance? |
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Post by Marches on Feb 24, 2015 7:17:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure how my first try at grape cuttings is going. Two or thee weeks ago when it was it was 65 0 outside I trimmed my grape vines. I chopped up the cuttings and just stuck most of them in the ground to see what happens. I took ten of each kind inside and put them in plastic above the bathroom heater, intending to return them outside but then the temp went to -15 and snowed. They haven't developed any roots but the goofy things have started growing. Now I doubt if it would be a good idea to put them outside even if it does thaw out cause I'm sure we will get more alternating warm / cold spells before spring. I have some pots of sand and compost ready, I think before I leave for work I will bring some inside and put them behind the wood stove (the woman leaves before I do ). When I get home I'll pot them up, remove the flower buds and put them by the East window in the unheated room upstairs. Does anyone think they have a chance? Air is warm enough for them to break bud, but soil temperature isn't enough for roots to develop. Rooting with heated propagators usually works, although putting them in the ground usually achieves a decent level of success too. If the roots don't develop then eventually the emerging leaves will exhaust the cutting. Some varieties and species root better than others. Most American and European varieties root easily and the species rupestris and riparia do to. Of the species, aestivalis and its offspring Norton are notorious for being very hard to root. |
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Post by philagardener on Feb 24, 2015 8:10:21 GMT -5
You might try cutting some willow twigs and adding them to the containers. As they root they release hormones that enhance the rooting of other cuttings (Google "willow water") and that might help stimulate root formation on your grape cuttings. That plus bottom heat as suggested by Marches should help get things going. Good luck! |
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). When I get home I'll pot them up, remove the flower buds and put them by the East window in the unheated room upstairs. 