What to expect from planting F1[?] bean seed

[kyredneck]

I grew some Doyce Chambers greasy cut short pole beans (white) from seed I picked up at the swap last fall and there were some crossed up seed. Or maybe mutant? I don't know. Anyway, the purple speckled seed on the far right seem to be uniform, and plump, and have caught my eye and I think I'll plant them next season.

What should I expect to get if they're F1? Will half revert back to their parentage?

What should I expect to get if they're a mutation? 

The middle black seed are irregular, some cut short, some elongated, looks like it could have Cherokee Trail of Tears as a parent, maybe.

Somebody talk beans to me please.

[reed]

I don't know much about genetics so I'll be watching to see what the more experienced people have to say about this. If I understand it right though the F1 generation of something comes out the same. That's why they can sell hybrids and they have to keep making the same cross to keep having the hybrid to sell each year. It is the F2 generation where you start getting differences. If that is correct then maybe the seeds you planted were already the F1 which is why you got differences this year. Again if that is so then maybe your purple greasys are already close to being a new kind.

In any case I'll bring a few of my big white beans that grew from smaller black Ideal Market seeds to the swap, just in case you bring a few of the purple greasys.

[philagardener]

reed , you are doing great there!

As long as the parents were inbred lines (i.e. within each variety, their two copies of each gene were pretty uniform, so each was "pure" breeding with respect to the desired traits), the F1 should be relatively uniform but may be different from the parents (because each F1 gets one set of genes from each parent, the dominant traits will show). These plants can also show an effect called hybrid vigor (heterosis); there is a benefit to carrying genetic diversity, and that also is part of the allure of hybrids (and can also be a benefit in a genetically-diverse landrace).

It is in the F2 that the different copies of each gene begin to segregate or reassort into different combinations (e.g. Mendel's peas). When two genes for a recessive trait come together, that individual will have a different character than its siblings that have genes for dominant traits (that will dominate or mask the recessive character).

Reassortment continues over a number of generations (F3 and beyond), so depending on the extent of differences between the parental lines and the number of characteristics involved (pod color, plant height, etc. would be determined by different genes) it might take until the F7 to get back to a "pure" breeding line where all the offspring of a single plant look the same. But if you are selecting for only a single character, like purple seed, you can get there more quickly. And then you get to name your new variety! :>)

[kyredneck]

Thanks you all. And the seed in the photo, if crossed, are F2, right? Got any idea what to expect if they're a mutation? If they're crossed, yea, K.I.S.S., selecting for purple seed would be the criteria initially, but ultimately it would be flavor and performance.

Wow, reed, that's quite a size difference between your two beans. Any idea what the other parent would be? You going to grow it next year?

The purple seed in the pic is all I have, so, maybe next year.

[kyredneck]

philagardener - "..to get back to a "pure" breeding line where all the offspring of a single plant look the same..."

So that's the goal. Simple enough. Thank you.

[reed]

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of these either. Some got eaten early on before I realized the difference. The plant making them has a few more pods not quite ready to pick. I think most likely the other parent is KY Wonder but it could be Rattlesnake, Little Brown Greasy or a number of others. I sure am going to grow it next year, in abundance I hope. I want to see what comes out. [add] Since, I guess, every seed could make something different, I'm going to grow them all!

[ferdzy]

Cherokee Trail of Tears is a stud. Every cross I have found in my bean garden so far has CToT as the father. F1s are typically black or blackish, it seems.

Here's the f2 grow outs from CToT x Dolloff. Shape of beans, sizes, plant habit and productivity all extremely similar; flower colour and bean colours differ. Bean cross

[reed]

I grew CTofT last year wonder what else I might come across. Doubt it could be father of my larger white beans though cause CTofT and IM are nearly identical looking in all stages. CTofT has a little more purple to the pods and maybe little tougher strings but other wise can't tell them apart except for flavor, we like IM better. ferdzy, that's amazing, the number of different phenotypes that show up. Now I know I want to grow every seed I can of the big white ones.
 
Makes me wonder, I got a bean at the swap last year I think it was called Cherokee Corn Field. Several different looking seeds and they said to grow them together and even if you plant just one kind you get all kinds, humm, maybe it is a cross that never stabilized and won't as long as you keep growing the all. They are in the corn patch across the road and have wild variation of flower color including some red. Never saw red before except on runners. 

[philagardener]

Sept 3, 2015 14:38:07 GMT -5 ferdzy said:

Here's the f2 grow outs from CToT x Dolloff. Shape of beans, sizes, plant habit and productivity all extremely similar; flower colour and bean colours differ. Bean cross

   ferdzy , those are amazingly beautiful!

[kyredneck]

Sept 3, 2015 14:38:07 GMT -5 ferdzy said:

Cherokee Trail of Tears is a stud. Every cross I have found in my bean garden so far has CToT as the father. F1s are typically black or blackish, it seems.

Here's the f2 grow outs from CToT x Dolloff. Shape of beans, sizes, plant habit and productivity all extremely similar; flower colour and bean colours differ. Bean cross

Lol, CTOT is a stud! Must be something extra sticky with the pollen sticking to bumblebees better, maybe.

Wow, that's incredible the number of color variations from the F2. How do you intend to select? Will you segregate by color and then for flavor/performance from there, or just continue to grow them all together to see what comes of it? I'm really curious.

You think that my purple speckled seed will produce the same sort of variation? If it doesn't have variations does that mean it is a mutation? (it's entirely possible that all the purple speckled seed came from a single plant because I had these groups of pods marked to save for earliness; they were located in the same general area on the trellis (24 ft))

[kyredneck]

reed I really like the looks of that white bean. It'll be interesting to see if it tastes good, stays tender in the full stage, produces well, and is a good canner (or at least that's what I mostly want in a green bean).

[reed]

It is actually a very light tan color, if it truly is a cross of IM and KY Wonder it about has to be good.

[reed]

Sept 3, 2015 5:45:34 GMT -5 philagardener said:

it might take until the F7 to get back to a "pure" breeding line where all the offspring of a single plant look the same.  

I missed this this little tidbit the first time I read it. Different phenotypes  from the same plant! As if it wasn't interesting enough already. 

[ferdzy]

Philagardener, they are really lovely, aren't they? Thanks for posting the photo here.

So far I am growing a selection of each colour because they look so nice together, and they are all similar enough in cooking qualities to keep them mixed, no problem. Likewise the plants are very similar so they all go on the trellis. Because of this I'm not sure I'll know exactly how stable each colour is in this generation (currently ripening in the garden).

My original cross was recognized on three plants; I assume they all come out of the same pod the year before. They did all ripen noticeably earlier than their pure Dolloff siblings. There were up to 9 beans per pod in the f1 as well, but so far all the subsequent beans have been 5 or 6 to a pod and have ripened with everything else. In general, productivity seems pretty good though.

Kyredneck, I expect your next generation of beans to show a similar amount of variation but there's only one way to know for sure...

Reed, I look forward to seeing what comes of your cross.

[philagardener]

Thanks ferdzy , I inserted your image directly into a quote of your message so others would see it more easily. Those really are wonderful; thanks for sharing.

I suspect things will continue to segregate for you (those being an F2 growout) but there are heirlooms where folks appear to have intentionally kept seed coat diversity for interest. Last year I grew Violet's Multicolor Butterbean:


The different seed coat traits appear to remix within the population so overall the yield appears similar year-to-year.