Early bolting, always bad? and more from the deep end

[reed]

In a number of posts across the forum I'v noticed a mention of selecting against early bolting to seed in various crops. Logically I imagine the reason for that is because when something starts blooming and making seed it stops producing whatever the editable part of it is. OK got it, BUT. Right now I have broccoli, brussels sprouts, kale, swiss chard and carrots in my garden waiting till next year so I can get some seeds.

Again BUT, my garden is very small, these plants can't stay where they are till they finish, I will have to find room and move them, that's assuming they make it through winter. This all goes back to my original problem when I decided to become self sufficient food and seed wise. It ain't easy in a small space.  I love Susan Ashworth's " Seed to Seed" book as a great reference now, but when I first read it I got discouraged. All the talk of pure, get rid of off types, isolation, population size and genetic depression left me thinking I really couldn't save much of anything except beans and tomatoes. 

Then it dawned on me the "pure" part was the  cause of genetic depression and why the heck should I care if one kind of broccoli crosses with another? It just increases genetic diversity thereby decreasing necessary population size and completely eliminates the notion of isolation distance.  I'm starting to think I don't care if different similar things cross. If for example the broccoli and brussels sprouts bloom together next year, I intend to save the seeds. If whatever grows makes a head, I'll eat it. If it makes sprouts I'll eat them. If it makes nothing but leaves stalks and stems I'll eat them. I bet they will still taste good and still be full of nutrition and immune to genetic depression even in small populations.

Tasty, nutritious and sustainable in my garden, I just don't think I care about anything other than that.  

I'm thinking of taking the same view on early bolting. Normally bi-annual crops crossed and selected into annuals might suite me fine. I can just plant successive patches to keep production going and because they are such mutts I don't have to devote large amounts of space for seed like I would for a pure variety. I'm sure I'll encounter  failures along the way but the worst that could happen is I'll have to buy new seeds. 

 

[steev]

There is much to be said for the "I'll eat whatever it is" approach. I find the "waste" parts of many plants quite tasty, in season and properly prepared; I was pleased when some local company started marketing "broccoli slaw" (shredded stems), so sensible; my housemates were blown away when I served artichokes with the stems still attached, though peeled a bit; they'd always discarded that, not knowing that it's 2-3 bites more of the prized heart. As for early bolting, I regard the bud-stalks of many Brassicas much more highly than the usual products, as they are more tender and delicately flavored than the parts we're commonly expected to eat. I suppose that results from supply and marketing concerns, as well as the commercial undesirability of leaving such crops so long in the field.

[kazedwards]

Early bolting is a good thought. I would be very interested in brassicas that did that. Carrots not so much but I can't save seeds (QAL everywhere) so it really doesn't matter. So for me it depends on the what it is. Brassicas would be great though, as long as I can figure out how to grow them.

[richardw]

Yes root crops are not one were early bolting is desirable. Talking of QAL zach, its that time of year where i need to check the my area for roadside QAL, i grub out anything within a 5kms radius.

[kazedwards]

Lol I wish I had time to do the same but the open field behind my house has patches of it about every 5-10'. So it would be more work than it's worth at the moment.

[kazedwards]

Another trait that would be handy is consistent bolting. I know it can be an issue with kale.

[reed]

I don't know if it would be considered early bolting or not because it did go through a winter but my experience this year with a single carrot plant has me curious. That plant which was planted in late summer or early fall, don't remember for sure, bolted to seed early this summer. What has my interest is although it grew lots of side umbels later the largest central one was way ahead of the local QAL, two weeks or more. Maybe spring planted carrots that over winter will do that anyway. I'm going to try to find out. If it holds true then I figure QAL contamination can be avoided by clipping off the later umbels to avoid confusion and just save from the first one. Mature carrot plants are a lot bigger than I realized. My fall planted carrots are doing well, I didn't replant any from this year's earlier crop, how dumb was that?

Still need lots more research, I'm basing this on that single carrot plant and two pet QAL that I let grow nearby. I really want to add a good carrot that I can basically leave in the ground and harvest through winter to my list of staple crops.

[add] another thing I discovered this year is how good seed pods are. Kale, quite tasty but get tough pretty quick. Radish also tasty with mild radish flavor, gets hotter and tougher. TURNIPS! wonderful and stay that way for a loooong time. Anxious to see how broccoli and Brussels sprouts are. 

[reed]

Well, I've made the decision on crossing broccoli and Brussels sprouts. SSE has a new page up info on population sizes and the like and it says that both of those need population size of 80 for seed saving. That is just not possible for me and I think not for most people, who is gonna grow 80 broccoli plants in a little family garden?

I currently have 2 Brussels sprout plants that look like they should make it through winter. One, I'm pretty sure should as it lived through last winter but it did not bloom this year? I'm pretty sure was a purchased hybrid plant. The other one is Long Island that I started in the spring. Other Long Island do not look good, either the few frosts have been hard on them or they have some other problem. In any event only the one looks good. I have about 10 broccoli that look fine, they are Green Sprouting Calabrese and Purple Sprouting and neither of them made heads last year but they are very large and healthy looking.

I'v been eating the leaves cut up in salads and steamed and find them to be a fine winter food. There are still sprouts to pick. Of course growth has slowed considerably as it got colder but still fresh green vegetables in January is pretty cool I think. The leaf stems have gotten very tough and stringy with a watery almost tasteless core.

The SSE info says that both require out crossing so in spring I am going to dig them all up and transplant into a spot with each sprout plant surrounded by the broccoli plants. Hopefully I will get seeds fairly early on and will plant some of them in late summer and more the next year. I'll keep adding in as many new varieties as I can and let winter sort out the ones it doesn't want.

I'm getting more and more convinced that the notion if saving "pure" varieties is just goofy when it comes to reliably producing food, especially in a small garden situation. I intend to completely dispose of the constraints of isolation and population size. While there may be exceptions it's mostly counterproductive for my purposes.

[flowerweaver]

reed welcome to the landrace tribe

[richardw]

I'm of the mindset that landrace breeding is best kept within a given variety, example - mixing up a number of different carrots or could be Brussels sprouts or what ever,i just cant see what you are hoping to achieve by crossing broccoli and Brussels sprouts when one was bred for its tight flower head while the other for its tight leaf clusters, what would the end result be that you are looking for ? a brussel sprout plant that grows small broccoli like head after producing sprouts ?. This would be totally unique as all broccoli and cauliflowers come from loose leaf as opposed to tight leaf varieties, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained

[Joseph Lofthouse]

One year I had just a hint of chard pollen get into the beets. The resulting hybrids were half-way between beets and chard. I dreamed about the possibility of having decent roots and decent leaves on the same plant, but it didn't capture my imagination enough to actually follow through on the idea.

I may have the same issue next year, because there were a few turnip flower weeds in the garden while the bok choi was flowering.

[philagardener]

rowan reported some neat things happening with her Morton Vivid Choi - both she and 12540dumont had leaves and bulbous roots on their plants, although I'm not sure we have a report on how the roots taste (yet)

alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8591/grow-choi

[rowan]

The roots are delicious, much milder than the leaves and with very little of the mustard flavour which is why I have started selecting for good bulbous and colourful roots instead of the leaves.

[steev]

Joseph: Lutz beets make huge, top-shaped roots and credibly chard-like leaves; just be sure to get true Lutz (top-shaped root, green-stemmed leaf); there are lots of ball-root, red-stem "Lutz" out there.

[reed]

Jan 3, 2016 13:13:02 GMT -5 richardw said:

I'm of the mindset that landrace breeding is best kept within a given variety, example - mixing up a number of different carrots or could be Brussels sprouts or what ever,i just cant see what you are hoping to achieve by crossing broccoli and Brussels sprouts when one was bred for its tight flower head while the other for its tight leaf clusters, what would the end result be that you are looking for ? a brussel sprout plant that grows small broccoli like head after producing sprouts ?. This would be totally unique as all broccoli and cauliflowers come from loose leaf as opposed to tight leaf varieties, but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained

I think that's generally the case but still, for a lot of things, I think it requires a larger space than I have to work with. I need sustainability in a small garden so I'm expanding the definition of variety in some things to include the whole species. Broccoli and sprouts are just different varieties of the same thing. I'm focused on them cause they seem to be easiest to grow for me and most prone to winter hardiness and they are what is alive in my garden right now.  I want to eliminate genetic depression and the concerns of isolation distance and population size.  I like the leaves, leaf stems and especially on broccoli, the stalks. It's fine with me if that's all I end up with. I really like having something that produces outside of the temperature range of cabbage worms and that I can eat fresh during a part of they year when that isn't usually possible around here. 

I figure having been bred to grow so differently that this will be what is considered a wide cross and the wider the better when it comes to genetic diversity. The leaves, leaf stems and possibly stalks are mostly what I'm looking for to eat. If something pops up that grows heads or sprouts either one, it will just be a bonus. If something does both I'll totally freak out.