If I was to attempt obtaining TPS from GRIN . . .

[gilbert]

So I know that getting seeds from GRIN is difficult, dubious, and contentious.

However, if I was to attempt it for my potato tower breeding experiment, which of the many accessions should I attempt obtaining? There is very little info on any of them, certainly not about their suitability for towers.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Having never grow TPS before and little experience with potatoes in general i will throw out my two cents. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish.

I think the first thing to consider are your needs. Skimming over the last page of your tower thread it sounds as if you may need to be doing active selections to obtain a potato variety that is genetically suited to growing in towers. If that is the case then i would suggest considering diploid potatoes over tetraploids for the time being as it sounds that tetraploid hybrid statistics is pretty crazy. If you want diversity tetraploid crosses sound great because instead of 2x2 possibilities you get 4x4. Especially for recessive traits that you might want to stabilize apparently that can create some headaches. But what do i know. Maybe diversity is what you want in order to find what you want faster. In which case do the opposite.

In terms of requesting seed from GRIN, yup. There are some people that will try to dissuade you off the bat because they don't consider backyard breeders to be doing real research and GRIN is an archive primarily for genetics research and agriculture improvement. They might even consider it to be of poor taste or malethical for someone who is not an official degree holding researcher to even attempt to. Of course i'm not one of those people and feel strongly against that kind of thinking. In fact i had someone the other day tell me that requesting seed from GRIN is not really possible anymore. Of course i did anyway, and as far as i can tell my request has gone through. I really do consider my efforts to be real research though, so it's not like i'm trying to "cheat the system". I may not have specific protocols in mind, but that's none of anyone else's business how i do things. I just have to somewhat tell them what kind of research i intend to do.

Nowadays though i do try to avoid requesting anything from GRIN if at all possible though. It just avoids lots of headaches. And i try to limit the number of things requested. The fewer things the better. I just requested some seed for S. Chocoense variety "M6". This will be my first attempt at trying TPS, and it will be interesting to use a wild potato relative for this. However i think M6 S. Chocoense is a good one to try because it is adapted to temperate growing conditions, has genes to allow self pollination, is potentially resistant to japanese potato beetles (not that i've ever seen them be a problem here (knocks on wood)), should grow well in extreme conditions, and may have a deep tuber growth (may be good or bad). Of course using a wild relative i guess i will need to pay attention to how bitter each tuber is as that could play a role.

Like before i do expect them to ask for grow reports at the end of the season, so i probably should try my best to do something with the seeds i requested so i can at least report something.

[billw]

You can always ask them for recommendations. Some of the maintainers are actually very helpful in identifying accessions that might have the traits that you're looking for. I think the potato unit is more open to requests from small timers than most of them are.

[gilbert]

Hello Billw,

That is not a bad idea. It looks like I would be contacting John Bamberg at the potato introduction project.

What should I call myself? Any ideas on things to say/ not to say?

Keen, I think I would want as much diversity as I can get. If I can roll enough dice and stumble on what I want, then I don't have to worry about genetically stabilizing it. (I plan to do a landrace, with anything particularly special split off for clonal evaluation.)

Do you think it would be better to get a project started and then involve GRIN? (So as to get a little more credibility? I've never even grown a standard potato tower, just done a lot of research on them.)

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

don't know. GRIN is best used when you have a specific variety or crop species your looking for and they have it. While sometimes they have landrace seed usually they have everything separate to one variety each. Not saying you shouldn't scour their database, but there may be other sources that may serve your purposes better with more variety. There are also other seedbanks and collections out there too.

of course sometimes you just have to experiment and try things even if you have no experience. if you fail, then you fail. but usually failure is the best teacher, so failure may not be failure at all, but the path to true success.

[trixtrax]

Hi,

From growing all sorts of potatoes, I'd say that varieties should really have two traits to be successful in a tower. 1. They continually produce tubers until frost, 2. Stolonize well from buried stems. Diploids seem to do this better than tetraploids.

Those types would probably be best to trial in a tower setting. I know I have seem stuff like this in my collection but I've have to think which ones since I grow every thing in dirt and it isn't something I'm selecting for.

As for the GRIN part, some stations are more open and friendly than others. The potato station seems to very much on the friendly end. My recommendations would be to formulate a two paragraph research statement which is added to your request. Try via email first. Explain to them your a person, your experiences thus far briefly, and ask for their input on varieties that seem to meet those criteria. They might have not a clue though. When they email back, request those varieties. Try to take enough data to provide them with results of your experiment, even if it's a few seasons down the road.

Also, maybe even before trying to select TPS material that suits your needs or growing small vegetative clones from GRIN, check out what Curzio has done with varieties that do well in grow bags. There is a Facebook page called Kenosha Potato Project where a lot of people have discussed similar information. Also the database at his website Kenosha Potato Project lists some varieties like Irish Treasure that keep setting tubers until frost.

[steev]

In my experience, citing landrace development has had negative results, but as has been mentioned, some sites are more welcoming than others; as with so many human interactions, developing relationships may be crucial to getting what you want; you want accessions; they want data.

In effect, if they send you material, you must "prime the pump" retroactively to keep things flowing.

[prairiegarden]

I had a long and frustrating exchange of emails with Cuzio a few years back, I emailed to ask specifically about getting tps for some of the varieties he had listed, I think there were 5 of them I wanted to try. He was very nice about the process and what to expect but insisted that Fedco carried tps so I could get it through them. I have bought seed through Fedco and not only do they NOT not carry tps, they specifically say that their potato offerings are not available to Canadians. Eventually I gave up, he clearly didn't want to let me buy any. Disappointing.

[nathanp]

I emailed to ask specifically about getting tps for some of the varieties he had listed, I think there were 5 of them I wanted to try. He was very nice about the process and what to expect but insisted that Fedco carried tps so I could get it through them. I have bought seed through Fedco and not only do they NOT not carry tps, they specifically say that their potato offerings are not available to Canadians. Eventually I gave up, he clearly didn't want to let me buy any.

Prairiegarden - Curzio primarily does not deal with TPS. He collects some of it, but is not always diligent to catalog it, and does not grow much TPS out. He is primarily concerned with growing potatoes in grow bags, nearly all from tubers. I think he is much more inclined to give or sell TPS to people who are actively involved with the Kenosha Potato Project. I think he gets a lot of people that hang around just to try to get TPS, some of them very (inappropriately) demanding TPS from him or others.

Curzio does sell TPS through seedsavers, so that is one possibility. I normally would recommend Tom Wagner's website, but it appears he may not open it this year.

I will mention as well, that if you are looking for a source of very diverse TPS seed, Trixtrax does have a few TPS listings on Marianna's Heirloom Seeds. His survive and thrive mix is probably super diverse and a great starting point to try TPS.

[nathanp]

Oh, by the way, if you are thinking of going the route of asking GRIN, Trixtrax's idea of submitting reports is a great idea. The reports often show up in the GRIN groups annual report, and that is used by them, to justify what they do. I am sure they appreciate them.

Here is an example NRSP Annual Report 2015

[coppice]

Feb 4, 2016 19:24:49 GMT -5 gilbert said:

So I know that getting seeds from GRIN is difficult, dubious, and contentious.

However, if I was to attempt it for my potato tower breeding experiment, which of the many accessions should I attempt obtaining? There is very little info on any of them, certainly not about their suitability for towers.

I might spend some time on Tom Wagners site, and ask of him any unanswered questions you might have. Um, tatermater.com or some such.

[nathanp]

tatermater.proboards.com/

You may get a quicker response from the Kenosha Potato Project people if it is a general question, not directly for Tom Wagner, although Tom is an admin of that group too.

[gilbert]

Hi everyone,

Still considering this.

So diploids may be better then tetraploids?

I'm trying to order TPS from Marriane's tomato seed, per nathan's recommendation.

I will probably delay contacting GRIN until the second year of the project. Carol Deppe recommends that approach; that one should be able to say: I have done x and y, and grown y and z, but I need germplasim that can do a and b. That supposedly establishes one's credibility.

[nathanp]

I think Carol's approach sounds wise about establishing credibility.

I will keep my eyes open regarding things that might fit the mold of what you are looking for. Ordering TPS from Marianna's should give you a good genetic base to try some different things. I started this year's TPS seeds a few days ago and am growing about about tubers from about 150 of last year's TPS plants.

[gilbert]

Sounds interesting.

Yes, I thought that since I have never even grown a TPS before, it would be rather cocky and presumptuous to order a bunch of rare stuff from a busy gene bank. Thanks for keeping an eye out!