Artichoke Family Questions

[blueadzuki]

Hi all

As with a lot of my questions, this one has it's origins in my collection of unidentified seeds picked out of things in my seed hunts. This year I decided that one of the things I would plant was 58 shiny seeds I found in bags of Indian lentils. At the last minute yesterday I held off on the grounds that they appeared to be some sort of thistle and would therefore probably need a bigger area to grow than the smallish pot I had ready for them.

This however, gave me some time to do a little more research last night online since I had always felt the seeds looked a little familiar. After a little online searching I found some seeds pictured that are a very good match to what I have in most respects (my seeds are a bit browner than the ones in the picture, and since there was no scale, may be a bit smaller. Mine are about the size of small sunflower seeds), and these are labeled as being globe artichoke seeds. I have not heard of artichokes being grown much in India (where I assume the lentils came from)

My question is as follows, assuming they grow to the point where they make chokes,and said chokes look like artichokes (as opposed to some other sort of thistle) how much risk would I be at trying a few? That is does anyone know if Artichokes have any near relatives that are actually poisonous? I did a little online hunt and it said that while no thistles were extremely poisonous, some could have adverse effects in more than small doses. I know wild artichokes a.k.a. cardoons are safe to eat (though cardoon seed seems to be a lot thinner than what I have) but was wondering if anyone knew of any that definitively were not.

I'll try and do a scan of the seed later so those who are familiar with artichoke seed can make a better judgement



P.S. One side benefit, I have a better guess as to the identity of the "glue thistle" I grew two years ago. Looks like it's some sort of musk thisle (probably NOT regular as the flowers on mine were very small. St. Mary's?"

[darrenabbey]

I don't tend to think of artichokes as having toxic natures. They're more problematic in being extremely invasive/weedy. I'm curious what the seeds look like.

[blueadzuki]

Unfortunately I'm going to have to let you down on that point. Over the weekend I forgot about what I said and actually planted the seeds, so they are now in peat pots on my radiator (given how big artichoke plants get, I though it best to plant the seeds separately in peat pots and then transplant the seedlings into the ground so I can space them appropriately.) It's recent enough I could probably pull one back out (i.e. they probably haven't germinated yet but I honestly don't know if any camera I have is good enough to focus on one seed).

[blueadzuki]

Here's a picture of two of them with a quarter for size comparison

[diane]

I lined up an artichoke seed with "America" on a quarter, and it is the same length, but not nearly as broad as yours.

[blueadzuki]

well this was the picture I was using for reference. I think their may be some variation in seed breadth

[mskrieger]

Hm. Somehow the seeds you have look different to me than either the artichoke or cardoons I've grown. A couple notes about the thistle family, at least for cardoons--the first leaves that emerge are not jagged but definitely have some hairs on them and have that distinctive mild/bitter artichoke taste (you'll know it when you try it.) They grow vigorously, are set back seriously by transplanting, and at least artichokes and cardoons won't flower until they've had a winter (or been 'vernalized', exposed to colder than 50F for at least 10 days.)

My cardoons winter over if I don't harvest the stalk for food in the fall, then make absolutely enormous gorgeous purple flowers in mid-summer. Very decorative. But take up a massive amount of space. Don't know how they'll do in a little pot.

[blueadzuki]

They're only staying in peat pots until they germinate. I'm transplanting seedlings. It just occurred to me that, on the chance they ARE something like an artichoke/cardoon, broadcasting the seed into a pot (which is how I usually handle unknown seed) would probably result in a large loss of plants as those that landed in clumps would fight each other. And trying to hand plant in the ground directly carries a real risk of our extra avuncular gardeners deciding that they are weedy thistles and pulling them all up as soon as they appear.

[mskrieger]

Peat pots--savvy. May avoid the transplant shock. Keep us updated.

[diane]

Mar 27, 2016 13:20:50 GMT -5 blueadzuki said:

Hi all

does anyone know if Artichokes have any near relatives that are actually poisonous? I did a little online hunt and it said that while no thistles were extremely poisonous, some could have adverse effects in more than small doses. I know wild artichokes a.k.a. cardoons are safe to eat (though cardoon seed seems to be a lot thinner than what I have) but was wondering if anyone knew of any that definitively were not.

In 2014 I sowed Larosa Emanuele seeds of Romanesco artichokes and gave the plants to my neighbour who is from southern France, and an artichoke lover. They grew to be big silvery plants, bigger than other artichokes I have grown, and this year produced very small very sharply pointed artichokes. My neighbour ate some, including the top part of the stem, which he normally does. They were bitter, and he became ill with vomiting and diarrhea.

[steev]

Milk thistle, like cardoon, makes edible buds although they produce only thin hearts without fleshy leaves; I think that's the rule among thistles, only artichoke having been bred up to real usefulness. I've never heard of thistles being toxic, although doubtless people have a range of sensitivity, as to anything else.

[mskrieger]

So blueadzuki, any updates? Do they look like thistles/artichokes/cardoons at all? By now you should be seeing some hairy jagged leaves which will taste pretty darn bitter (and artichoke-y) from the heat and sunlight.

[blueadzuki]

Only two of them made it through, but those are indeed sort of spiky and hairy.

[steev]

Like my avatar?

[blueadzuki]

Sort of, but you are much more robust.

I took a closer look after the last message and one of the two plants has flower buds, so there should be developments fairly soon.

Based on those it is highly unlikely this actually is an artichoke or cardoon. There is a cluster of a lot of smallish buds, as opposed to one large bud. Actually given the size of the buds and plant, I have difficulty believing that the seeds could have been as big as they are.