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Post by starbuckwhy on Apr 9, 2016 3:15:18 GMT -5
I have been thinking about trying some seed mutation to add diversity to the gene pool of my corn project.
the chemical mutagens sound scary as hell to try and work with outside of laboratory conditions.
oddly enough though, building an X-ray machine sounds pretty manageable.
cement casing, $55 x-ray bulb, $25-$30 for the mount, $160-$190 for the Geiger counter, $160 for lead sheeting to protect my genitals etc. , $40 of cement to build the housing (which will become an "atomic" planter after I disassemble) ,
and a friend of mine already owns a high voltage power supply.
so, anyone know anything about X-ray induced mutations in zea seeds or pollen?
or just in plants in general?
I will post updates on the project here as they come up.
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Post by nicollas on Apr 9, 2016 4:56:28 GMT -5
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Post by darrenabbey on Apr 9, 2016 22:46:41 GMT -5
There is another post on the topic scheduled for 19Apr2016, so stay tuned. |
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Post by starbuckwhy on Apr 10, 2016 1:30:45 GMT -5
sweet, thanks  looking it up now. |
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Post by starbuckwhy on Apr 10, 2016 1:45:12 GMT -5
haha, sounds like he has gotten about to the same place that I have with it but the electrical engineering doesn't sound nearly so intimidating to me. making an x-ray tube would be, plus the beam would be unfocused and it would burn out before to long. but they sell ready to go tubes and mounting fixtures. the expensive part will probably be the electricity to run it as long as it would take to get results with a home built rig. I'd need to keep it on for a matter of hours. little bursts are affordable, but leaving it running could easily get into the 3 or even 4 figures. also, the led shielding makes it easier, but cement works just fine too and is a lot cheaper. I have also considered going about it by using chemicals, but like he said, outside of a lab, that is scary as hell. I have been hitting up local schools and am talking with someone who might be able to help me get in contact with someone. the academics I've talked to seem to think that if I can get my request to someone who heads a physics department then it is the sort of thing they would be amenable to. unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of barriers to getting to talk to someone in that position if you are not already a student or faculty member. my guess is that they get a lot of crazy people harassing them about weird ideas if they keep the lines of communication to the public to open. I am even trying a few crazy hail mary angles. for example, I put this craigslist add up no joke, this is a real add hanging out there on the internet. sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/wan/5530583434.html |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 10, 2016 7:32:26 GMT -5
Sounds like a feasable project if one makes sure to be safe about it. After all x-ray experiments are what killed off Rosalyn Franklin, the often forgotten and under appriciated person responsible for DNA discovery. Watson & Crick take all the credit and nobel prize, but it is clear that without Rosalyn's help they would never have figured it out. It seems mutagenic plant breeding may have more merit than i once thought. I like red grapefruits. And i guess the orp gene in peas was produced by mutagenic process. Makes me wonder what kind of interesting mutations could be achieved with high anthocyanin crops. If i were building my own x-ray machine for seeds i probably would go the bulb route with some sort of neon light power supply like what one uses for a tesla coil. I would then build a cement thing akin to DIY furnaces for metal melting (the little bertha furnace comes to mind, or the improved version www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://murdercube.com/files/Workshop/Workshop%2520and%2520Tools/An%2520Improved%2520Electric%2520Radiant%2520Shop%2520Furnace%2520(2002)%2520By%2520Dan%2520Hartman.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj6zOXriITMAhVB1mMKHdKNBF4QFgghMAE&usg=AFQjCNFznbuadiG3J5kesx6wr3QRCaJuwA&sig2=dhR_F7ft2DUthTSUeYJWXA)But i think i would make sure the cement had a built in layer of lead protection all around it and in the bottom and lid. Lead shot comes to mind whether used as thickly packed shot or as melted lead. Assuming safety could be assured the next step would be to find out how long is too much radiation for seeds. And to perhaps have some with the highest levels, and others with incrementally less. |
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Post by darrenabbey on Apr 10, 2016 10:39:43 GMT -5
haha, sounds like he has gotten about to the same place that I have with it I've gotten a little further along, in the sense that I've built a contained/controlled UV-c system. That is all detailed in the next posting I mentioned. but the electrical engineering doesn't sound nearly so intimidating to me. making an x-ray tube would be, plus the beam would be unfocused and it would burn out before to long. but they sell ready to go tubes and mounting fixtures. the expensive part will probably be the electricity to run it as long as it would take to get results with a home built rig. I'd need to keep it on for a matter of hours. Why would you need to run it for that long? For tiny seeds, and results from some NASA experiments, I've roughly calculated it would take about 5 minutes of exposure in my UV machine to get a roughly 50% germination inhibition (which would imply lots of mutations in the survivors, with still a decent number of survivors to work with). I'm still setting up to do the experiments to confirm this dosage, however. How did you calculate the hours time frame? |
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Post by starbuckwhy on Apr 11, 2016 14:16:58 GMT -5
wow, I take it back, sounds like you are a lot further along than I am hours was the worst case scenario I had in mind with the relatively unfocused tube that I found cheap online. the seeds I am most interested in mutating are teosinte, for breeding. I am concerned that with the super thick seed coating it will be hard to get mutations from wavelengths that have a harder time penetrating dense seed material like the husks of the zea diploperennis seeds I want to work with. some of the stuff I read about x-ray induced mutations seemed to imply that with the normal "soft" x-rays (as they called them) it can be difficult to get the mutations with short-term exposure. I've had a really hard time finding any scientific or scholarly articles on the topic, so I have been going at my research from the opposite angle. I have been reading a lot of stuff that is written about avoiding radiation exposure and what situations might put crops "at risk" of mutation. this angle of research may have skewed my understanding of the topic. I am nowhere near actually building the device yet, so I haven't gotten into the specific numbers. I am looking forwards to reading your following post(s). haha, I actually didn't realize it was your blog that was linked to thank you for engaging with me on this topic, I am really enjoying the conversation(s) |
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Post by darrenabbey on Apr 11, 2016 23:51:18 GMT -5
I am looking forwards to reading your following post(s). haha, I actually didn't realize it was your blog that was linked to thank you for engaging with me on this topic, I am really enjoying the conversation(s) The wonder of cross-site social media. The blog doesn't get all that much traffic, but it is a useful venue for organizing my thoughts and writing. Most of the conversations it inspires end up here, facebook, or elsewhere. |
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Post by darrenabbey on Apr 12, 2016 0:04:49 GMT -5
hours was the worst case scenario I had in mind with the relatively unfocused tube that I found cheap online. the seeds I am most interested in mutating are teosinte, for breeding. I am concerned that with the super thick seed coating it will be hard to get mutations from wavelengths that have a harder time penetrating dense seed material like the husks of the zea diploperennis seeds I want to work with. some of the stuff I read about x-ray induced mutations seemed to imply that with the normal "soft" x-rays (as they called them) it can be difficult to get the mutations with short-term exposure. I don't imagine even the hard seeds of teosinte would really be all that much of a block to X-rays. However, assuming it is a problem... Something I'm thinking of doing for treating some larger seeds (beans, squash) is to partially dissect seeds to expose the embryo (after soaking to soften the tissues). (This would let me mutagenize seeds that would otherwise be entirely resistant to UV-C treatment.) It would take some practice, but it is something you might be able to do with teosinte seeds to reduce the effective dosage the embryo would need to receive for mutagenesis. I've had a really hard time finding any scientific or scholarly articles on the topic, so I have been going at my research from the opposite angle. I have been reading a lot of stuff that is written about avoiding radiation exposure and what situations might put crops "at risk" of mutation. this angle of research may have skewed my understanding of the topic. I am nowhere near actually building the device yet, so I haven't gotten into the specific numbers. The lack of useful published information has been a real pain. One of the more interesting things I found when looking for information on UV-C treatment was an undergrad student poster presentation at a university in Pakistan. They were at least approaching the topic in the way I was thinking, even if their results were maybe not applicable to my goals. |
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Post by steev on Apr 12, 2016 3:07:04 GMT -5
This is very interesting; is your off-line name "Vronckensteen"?
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Post by steve1 on Apr 12, 2016 5:33:13 GMT -5
starbuckwhy check out Stig Blixt under Google scholar. He's the more recent genetic & radiation mutation pea guy (60's/70's) should give you ideas of doses for peas. Hope that helps.
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Post by steve1 on Apr 14, 2016 5:16:57 GMT -5
Nice reference steev. Two references on Google. Gonna rent that one when I find it... |
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Post by steev on Apr 15, 2016 2:01:20 GMT -5
"Puttin' on the Ritz; eeeah!" Good fun.
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Post by darrenabbey on Apr 19, 2016 22:56:34 GMT -5
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