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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 31, 2017 18:47:56 GMT -5
Those seed bank collections are a beautiful treasure. Here's hoping that we will make proper use of them while they are available. The first of the Solanum habrochaites seeds I planted of what Joseph sent me for my direct seeded tomato breeding scheme is about half germinated but no cotyledons have emerged yet the seedling looks like a little green stick so far. I keep checking on it every few hours! It's one of the Neandertomato seeds descended from LA 1777. Ha ha!!! Checking every few hours for a week might test your patience... I only check once a day... I have some seedlings currently growing which are 75% LA1777 and 25% domestic tomato. They came up with the sorts of quick-unfolding cotyledons that I expect of domestic tomatoes. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 10, 2017 14:26:00 GMT -5
Joseph Lofthouse , do you have any photos of S. habrochaites hybrid leaves? The best i could find was your photo of your panamourous plant, but i'm assuming that is not a hybrid, or is it? garden.lofthouse.com/images/tomato/tomato-panamourous-2017-02-06a_640.jpgI ask because my 1st winter test tomato is doing fantastic under my new LED lights. I planted a few different seeds, but this was the only one to grow. Based on leaf shape alone i suspect it is Wx5 (Wild Zebra) and i assume those cool looking leaves are a trait inherited from S. habrochaites. Very cool. I like them better than standard tomato leaves. But based on the photos i can find i think i also like them better than standard wild S. habrochaites leaves as well. Though it seems there are a lot of phenotypic variation within S. habrochaites as a group. based on smell i also suspect maybe Wx5 as i feel like it has a hint of another smell. Not necessarily any worse than tomato smell in general, but perhaps the hint of another compound. Maybe this is a hint of the "sungold smell" or the characteristic S. habrochaites smell that people keep talking about. Having not yet grown pure S. habrochaites i wouldn't know what it would smell like or even if i would notice it at all anyway.  here is another tomato to compare it to. Bad photo, but it has what i would call more muted or softer rounder leaves. I suspect this one to be a 'Anasazi' variety. 
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 10, 2017 18:13:09 GMT -5
I don't know who's the daddy of any of the WildX lines. Keen101: The photo you mentioned is an F1 hybrid between domestic tomatoes and LA1777, Solanum habrochaites. Here's a photo for comparison. LA1777 on the left, F1 hybrid on the right. I have only grown 3 or 4 accessions of S. habrochaites. LA1777 is an outlier by having small leaves on a small plant with delicate stems. The other accessions have *huge* leaves and robust stems. Fern is the mother of this hybrid. The hybrid leaves are more jagged than when the mother of the cross was regular-leaved or potato-leaved. There are lots of different smells that come from different wild tomato plants. I haven't been able to identify a smell and say, "That is the Solanum ______" smell. There seems to be a lot of diversity.  Solanum habrochaites  |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 9, 2017 23:23:22 GMT -5
The literature I read says that LA1777 is self-incompatible. But it seems to me like it is self-pollinating, at least to some small degree or other.
It seems like some of the F2 descendants of [Fern X La1777] were self-incompatible.
So I don't know what to say, other than it's messy.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 10, 2017 0:23:13 GMT -5
The literature I read says that LA1777 is self-incompatible. But it seems to me like it is self-pollinating, at least to some small degree or other. It seems like some of the F2 descendants of [Fern X La1777] were self-incompatible. So I don't know what to say, other than it's messy. I remember seeing ONE fruit FINALLY on the F2 [Fern X La1777] plant that grew from Joseph the other day! Now that it snowed and melted i need to go back out and collect some wild tomato berries including that one and lots of fruits of peruvianum and habrochaites. Also the remaining true cheesmanaei fruits (even though not ripe). |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 11, 2017 12:20:04 GMT -5
Okay, so i went out to look for that one fruit of F2 fern and i found 12 fruits! The F2 (fern x LA1777) plant had a growth habit and late season fruiting setting similar to the pure Solanum Cheesmanaei plants, but had fruits about the same size as the S. habrochaites (to be expected) with green stripes on the fruits. While the S. habrochaites had green fruits with one main stripe at the bottom of the fruit, the F2 fern fruits had an average of three with a ever so slight tinge of red color. The F2 fern plant i had had tiny closed up flowers. It also had some sort of anthocyanin gene in the foliage because when it got cold it was one of the few tomato plants to turn purple leaves and stem. I noticed the S. habrochaites seeds are slightly bigger than S. peruvianum and have more dark green gel around the seeds. Solanum peruvianum and solanum habrochaites fruits did not have the slightly weird poisony smell the pennellii hybrid fruits did. p.s. i read that pure S. pennelli is mostly self incompatible but does self polinate and set seed at about 2% of the time. Perhaps something similar is going on in these other species and crosses. So yeah, i guess it's messy. lol. p.s.s. i forgot to add that most of the hiding F2 fern fruits were on a branch closest to the S. habrochaites plant. Coincidence? I'm leaning toward not. Perhaps the wild S. habrochaites polinated the F2 (fern x LA1777) in a bee facilitated back-cross. Which if true, is exactly why i planted the wild tomatoes with the hybrids so at least some compatible pollen would be available for the hybrids, and considering that i only had one f2 fern plant available i didn't have another f2 fern plant that probably would have had more compatible pollen. Joseph Lofthouse, is it true that tomato plants are more selective to the pollen they accept during the beginning of the season as opposed to later in the season? I thought i had read that they were. |
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Post by imgrimmer on Oct 28, 2017 13:45:36 GMT -5
Today I found all my habrochaites plants still vital. No sign of late blight or cold damages. I wonder if I can over winter them in the greenhouse.
Someone has tried this before?
No plant had set fruit or even flowered so far. I have about 6 different accessions. Is habrochaites long season? Also pennelli is just setting fruit.
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Post by gilbert on Nov 7, 2017 14:14:53 GMT -5
I grew out Neandermato seeds from Joseph. I lost quite a few to an unexpected cold snap this spring a week after I had set out the tomato seedlings. I got most things covered with wall of water protectors, but ran out with only a few Neandermato plants covered. The ones outside died. And then one of the Wall of water keeled over and smashed the plants under it! In any case, I got three or four seedlings through, surrounding two Big Hill tomato seedlings. They grew monstrously, swamping the poor little "big" Hill plants. The Hill plants did set a few fruit, so I can hope for a cross. By the years end, the Neandermatos were covered with fruit, some of which dropped on the ground. Just before the first hard frost I gathered up a quart of fruits, a mix of those on the ground and those on the plants. I let them all after ripen for a month and processed them. I hope the weather and other disasters didn't bottleneck the strain too much; Joseph, how diverse were they to start with? I noticed some differences in fruit color and amount of fuzz.
And they certainly had a very strong smell, that I didn't care for. I generally like the way tomatoes smell. Somebody else thought the smell was something like vanilla.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 7, 2017 17:09:57 GMT -5
gilbert: Thanks for the grow report. 3 accessions of S. habrochaites contributed seeds/pollen to Neandermato, with a number of plants from each accession. This year's Neandermato has seeds/pollen from 4 accessions. I look forward to any Big Hill seedlings that might be off type. You should be able to tell which is which soon after the first true leaves begin forming. The habrochaites leaf serrations are dominant. Neandermato are the largest tomato plants that I grow!
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Post by DarJones on Nov 9, 2017 9:47:56 GMT -5
Several TGRC accessions of S. Habrochaites are self fertile. One sure way to tell is to look at the number of fruit set. Self fertile plants produce a huge load where SI plants set limited numbers. Joseph, did I send you seed of LA2175?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 9, 2017 10:34:59 GMT -5
Several TGRC accessions of S. Habrochaites are self fertile. One sure way to tell is to look at the number of fruit set. Self fertile plants produce a huge load where SI plants set limited numbers. I grew out 50 plants of the F2 of a cross between [Silvery Fir Tree X LA1777]. About 4 of the plants acted like self-incompatibility had been restored. (Self-incompatibility is broken in the F1). Those few plants were blooming like crazy with no fruit set. They set fruit sometimes if manually pollinated with mixed pollen from other varieties. I'm excited about that. It seems like self-incompatibility can be restored by selection only. Sucks, because there are so many selection criteria that might be important in addition to self incompatibility: bold floral displays above the foliage, huge flower petals, exerted stigmas, non-fused anthers, producing lots of pollen, attractiveness to pollinators, etc... The plants in the population tended towards small indistinct flowers with tightly closed anther cones and hidden stigmas. They weren't attractive to pollinators. I feel unsuccessful about selecting for self-incompatibility this year. The seed became available to me late in the growing season. I feel satisfied with the progress, because I collected a lot of F3 seed from self compatible plants. And a lot more F2 seed was generated so I can try again next year. If it's a numbers game, I need to be putting a lot more plants into the garden. Joseph, did I send you seed of LA2175? No. I'd love some seed. My general population of S. habrochaites has pollinators on it whenever I visit the garden. One of my long term goals for the crosses with domestic tomatoes is that they are highly attractive to pollinators, whether or not self incompatibility gets re-established. A small bee on Solanum habrochaites  Bumblebee  |
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Post by gilbert on Nov 10, 2017 20:40:25 GMT -5
Just another observation; the flowers on my plants were smaller and less prominent than those pictured in the first page of this thread; I'm not sure if that would be genetic, or weather, or what.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 11, 2017 1:10:17 GMT -5
Several TGRC accessions of S. Habrochaites are self fertile. One sure way to tell is to look at the number of fruit set. Self fertile plants produce a huge load where SI plants set limited numbers. I grew out 50 plants of the F2 of a cross between [Silvery Fir Tree X LA1777]. About 4 of the plants acted like self-incompatibility had been restored. (Self-incompatibility is broken in the F1). Those few plants were blooming like crazy with no fruit set. They set fruit sometimes if manually pollinated with mixed pollen from other varieties. I'm excited about that. It seems like self-incompatibility can be restored by selection only. Sucks, because there are so many selection criteria that might be important in addition to self incompatibility: bold floral displays above the foliage, huge flower petals, exerted stigmas, non-fused anthers, producing lots of pollen, attractiveness to pollinators, etc... The plants in the population tended towards small indistinct flowers with tightly closed anther cones and hidden stigmas. They weren't attractive to pollinators. I feel unsuccessful about selecting for self-incompatibility this year. The seed became available to me late in the growing season. I feel satisfied with the progress, because I collected a lot of F3 seed from self compatible plants. And a lot more F2 seed was generated so I can try again next year. If it's a numbers game, I need to be putting a lot more plants into the garden. My general population of S. habrochaites has pollinators on it whenever I visit the garden. One of my long term goals for the crosses with domestic tomatoes is that they are highly attractive to pollinators, whether or not self incompatibility gets re-established. Interesting with the 4 plants that seemed SI. Is it possible that there were others in that population of 50 that were also SI but for whatever reason perhaps had other traits like pollen or large flowers that attracted pollinators so that they received compatible pollen in abundance and set an abundant fruit set? Having grown one plant of your f2 [Fern x LA1777], my plant seemed to be SI. But it also had tiny tiny non-attractive flowers. So i'm not surprised it almost didn't set fruit. Seems that to be successful in the wild a SI plant needs to be highly attractive to pollinators in some way. Though most of my S. cheesmanie and S. galapagense also did not set fruit despite them supposedly being self-fertile. They too had tiny closed up flowers not attractive to pollinators. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 11, 2017 12:37:00 GMT -5
keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.). Yes, it's very possible that there were more plants acting self-incompatible than I knew. I wasn't paying much attention to the patch, since they got planted late, and they were mostly so long season that they didn't start flowering till frost was nigh. There were a few plants with exerted stigmas, and a few with larger than domestic flowers. I collected the fruits in-bulk immediately before expected frost, so didn't get any selection done based on traits, other than, "Must produce seeds". Attempts to clone the SI acting plants were not successful. I collected 6 seeds from a fruit which I manually pollinated between 2 plants that I suspected were self-incompatible. I collected about 50 seeds from an F2 plant with non-connected anther cones. Before frost, I yanked the SI acting plants up by the roots, and kept them in the greenhouse in a bucket of water. A few days ago, I collected about 6 fruits from them. I haven't checked for seeds yet. The back-cross I attempted yielded 8 plants: LA1777 X [Domestic X LA1777]. They produced lots of fruits. One of the plants looked way off type for Solanum habrochaites, so I collected seed from it separate from the rest. My philosophy towards this year's tomatoes, was that they were the vanguard. Helping me to know what to expect for next year when I have lots more seed available to me, and more diverse types. Lessons learned. Want to get them started sooner. These can be huge plants, so want to space them more, or perhaps next year plant them in huge numbers, close together and cull plants early based on flower type. It's easier for me to do manual pollinations in the greenhouse than in the field.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 11, 2017 12:40:10 GMT -5
Just another observation; the flowers on my plants were smaller and less prominent than those pictured in the first page of this thread; I'm not sure if that would be genetic, or weather, or what. There is a wide range of flower shapes/sizes in S. habrochaites. Much more than in domestic tomatoes. Now that I have a number of accessions well mixed together, I expect future selection goals to include huge, more-enticing flowers. |
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The first of the Solanum habrochaites seeds I planted of what Joseph sent me for my direct seeded tomato breeding scheme is about half germinated but no cotyledons have emerged yet the seedling looks like a little green stick so far. I keep checking on it every few hours! It's one of the Neandertomato seeds descended from LA 1777. 
