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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 20, 2017 20:38:57 GMT -5
Hello all. I think this is mostly directed at DarJones, but perhaps not. In addition if anyone else has photos or knowledge about Solanum peruvianum and/or crosses then feel free to jump in and/or hinjack this thread. I really don't mind. I've read on the tomatoville forum (and maybe this one) that Solanum peruvianum is one of the ones that is harder to cross to domestic tomatoes because of seed size issues. Last year i grew the variety "Fantom du Laos" from Baker Creek. I noticed when i saved seed that the seeds are unusually, perhaps even abnormally small compared to any other variety of domestic tomato, even including S. galapagense and S. Cheesmaniae which have small seeds. I think Fantom du Laos has even smaller seeds than those, yet no one seems to have mentioned it but me. Perhaps not many people have actually grown Fantom du Laos, or perhaps i got some sort of mutated strain (either originally or a mutant from my garden). Regardless, since the seeds are so abnormally small i wonder if this particular variety would do better in attempted crosses with S. peruvianum. I might try it. I ordered some seeds for S. peruvianum from PeaceSeeds. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 20, 2017 21:54:58 GMT -5
I think you may just have gotten an odd batch, The Fantome du Laos seed I have in my storage stock looks normal for a tomato, and most pictures of the variety I have seen online seem to show normal sized seed*
As for how well it will work I have no idea.
But there can be some odd seeds. Somewhere in my storage I have some seed for what I think is Purple Calabash that looks odd as well. The tricomes (hairs on the seed coat) which on a normal tomato seed are long and soft (which is why as the seed dries they all fall down and make that "halo" around the actual seed) are short and bristly (so that the seeds stick to each other like velcro)
* P.S. I have to ask, did you try and to the trick yet (put a Fantome on your windowsill to see if there are any ghosts around.)
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 20, 2017 22:01:30 GMT -5
I think you may just have gotten an odd batch, The Fantome du Laos seed I have in my storage stock looks normal for a tomato, and most pictures of the variety I have seen online seem to show normal sized seed* As for how well it will work I have no idea. But there can be some odd seeds. Somewhere in my storage I have some seed for what I think is Purple Calabash that looks odd as well. The tricomes (hairs on the seed coat) which on a normal tomato seed are long and soft (which is why as the seed dries they all fall down and make that "halo" around the actual seed) are short and bristly (so that the seeds stick to each other like velcro) * P.S. I have to ask, did you try and to the trick yet (put a Fantome on your windowsill to see if there are any ghosts around.) hmm. well now i'm really intrigued. I guess i will try my best to grow out what i saved and see if the small seed trait is consistent. Maybe i got some sort of mutant or weird cross going on. Ironically it grew in the same row (maybe right next to) a tomato called Chartruese Mutant. A really strange growing tomato plant. Kind of bushy and with the odd feeling like it was collected from some nuclear accident and it really was mutated. Though i probably just imagined that last part. haha! no, i didn't. but i do like that this variety has that legend associated with it. I could totally see someone taking this variety and adding a transgenic jellyfish GFP gene to make it glow in the dark on purpose. www.glowingplant.com/ |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 20, 2017 22:57:09 GMT -5
I think you may just have gotten an odd batch, The Fantome du Laos seed I have in my storage stock looks normal for a tomato, and most pictures of the variety I have seen online seem to show normal sized seed* As for how well it will work I have no idea. But there can be some odd seeds. Somewhere in my storage I have some seed for what I think is Purple Calabash that looks odd as well. The tricomes (hairs on the seed coat) which on a normal tomato seed are long and soft (which is why as the seed dries they all fall down and make that "halo" around the actual seed) are short and bristly (so that the seeds stick to each other like velcro) * P.S. I have to ask, did you try and to the trick yet (put a Fantome on your windowsill to see if there are any ghosts around.) hmm. well now i'm really intrigued. I guess i will try my best to grow out what i saved and see if the small seed trait is consistent. Maybe i got some sort of mutant or weird cross going on. Ironically it grew in the same row (maybe right next to) a tomato called Chartruese Mutant. A really strange growing tomato plant. Kind of bushy and with the odd feeling like it was collected from some nuclear accident and it really was mutated. Though i probably just imagined that last part. haha! no, i didn't. but i do like that this variety has that legend associated with it. I could totally see someone taking this variety and adding a transgenic jellyfish GFP gene to make it glow in the dark on purpose. www.glowingplant.com/Well there are some tomatoes like that. Look up "Stick" or "Curl" some time; a tomato with basically no side branches or petioles (so you just get leaves and fruit coming off the stems directly) Or Riensentomate or Brain (where every locule of the fruit is so seperated you can pull them apart like garlic cloves) And pollution can do some weird things too. Somewhere I have a sample of wheat I collected from some soil that must have had some sort of heavy metal damage or something like that. What I don't know, but the grain would up with polycephaly (multiple heads per stalk*) and stems that looked like corkscrews. Not a bad idea, but I actually think they would probably do better to use the luciferase gene from a firefly than the jellyfish one. They've already managed to splice that into a tobacco plant (some time ago, as you can find a photo of it in most basic biology textbooks) so a tomato would probably not be all that hard. * There are types of wheat where this is perfectly natural, like rivet wheat ( Triticum tugidum) but this was not one of them (as far as I know) |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 20, 2017 23:04:46 GMT -5
I think the way to go is embryo rescue. I still don't have a microscope. I recently bought a microscope from AmScope. I'm relativity happy with it, though i have yet to seriously use it for anything. Hmm... maybe i could do my own embryo rescue. So it's basically just using a scalpel and removing the seed coat? I was reading earlier tonight that laboratory hybrids between S. peruvianum and S. lycopersicon are still not easy to cross with S. lycopersicon. Makes it sound like you would need to do two generations of embryo rescue. Unless of course two hybrids are able to cross with each other thereby producing an F2. I guess that self-incompatibility can get in the way a bit with these crosses because you can't just let the F1 hybrids self pollinate themselves to get the F2. p.s. how easy is the plant culturing to do? I've never done it, though i'm interested in learning. Carolina Biological has some nice supplies, but they seem very expensive. maybe worth it though? www.carolina.com/living-organisms/plant-tissue-culture-and-plant-physiology/10605.ct |
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Jan 21, 2017 0:01:44 GMT -5
Good info about the equipment and supplies, and I'm looking forward to hearing how everyone's embryo rescuing goes. I haven't attempted it yet, but would like to sometime soon.
If you haven't seen it already, "Plants from Test Tubes: An Introduction to Micropropagation" is a pretty good reference book.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 21, 2017 0:04:11 GMT -5
These seeds were grown in my garden, a few feet from each other, so growing conditions were similar. Solanum habrochaites seeds aren't that much larger than S. peruvianum seeds.  High Resolution Image |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 21, 2017 0:12:08 GMT -5
I used to do tissue culture in a fully equipped laboratory. Easy enough with those tools. There is no reason that antibiotics and fungicides couldn't be added to tissue culture solutions used by home experimenters. Even other sterilizing agents like peroxides.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 21, 2017 1:03:46 GMT -5
I guess that self-incompatibility can get in the way a bit with these crosses because you can't just let the F1 hybrids self pollinate themselves to get the F2. I made F1 hybrids using domestic tomatoes as the mother, and S. habrochaites as the pollen donor. They seem to be self-fertile (although they have exerted stigmas which isn't the best plan for growing in a bedroom window without pollinators). I'll be watching for self-incompatibility to show up in later generations. With one of the lines, 11 seed like things were produced. 5 of them survived fermentation. 4 of them germinated. Two died quickly. One is a runt. One is growing great. I used pollen from the F1 hybrids to pollinate S. habrochaites. The fruits matured and set seeds which make them BC1 (or failed self-incompatibility system). I haven't planted the seeds, but I expect to soon. I expect the BC1 to be self-incompatible. The F1 hybrids are currently flowering again, now that days are getting longer again, and I'm doing buzz pollination and manual pollination every day, so maybe I'll have more seeds before spring. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 21, 2017 10:43:08 GMT -5
I made F1 hybrids using domestic tomatoes as the mother, and S. habrochaites as the pollen donor. They seem to be self-fertile (although they have exerted stigmas which isn't the best plan for growing in a bedroom window without pollinators). I'll be watching for self-incompatibility to show up in later generations. With one of the lines, 11 seed like things were produced. 5 of them survived fermentation. 4 of them germinated. Two died quickly. One is a runt. One is growing great. I used pollen from the F1 hybrids to pollinate S. habrochaites. The fruits matured and set seeds which make them BC1 (or failed self-incompatibility system). I haven't planted the seeds, but I expect to soon. I expect the BC1 to be self-incompatible. The F1 hybrids are currently flowering again, now that days are getting longer again, and I'm doing buzz pollination and manual pollination every day, so maybe I'll have more seeds before spring. That's good to hear. I think i saw Dar say that some S. habrochaites accessions were self-incompatible and some were self-fertile, so that must make things bit confusing with so much variation within a species. I was talking about reading about S. peruvianum hybrids specifically when i made that comment. Mostly based on this Abstract: www.actahort.org/books/935/935_12.htm |
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Post by walt on Jan 21, 2017 13:31:32 GMT -5
That's good to hear. I think i saw Dar say that some S. habrochaites accessions were self-incompatible and some were self-fertile, so that must make things bit confusing with so much variation within a species. The Report of the Tomato Genetics cooperative said the same thing, but gave accession numbers. But I don't have them here at the library with me. |
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Post by walt on Jan 21, 2017 13:43:12 GMT -5
I had a class under Dr. Carl Clayberg. He was a bean breeder at that time, but he had been a noted tomato breeder. He commented in a lecture that domestic tomatoes were very hard to cross with S. peruvianum and S. Chilense, and that it had been thought for years that the F1 was just as hard to cross. Then it was discovered that unrelated F1 plants were quite interfertile.
Bear in mind that if you are working for years on crossing something with zero success that "quite fertile" might mean something like 2% fertile. So I don't know how fertile the F1 plants are.
I'm set up for tissue culture, and I've thought about trying these crosses. It is very easy to think about things. Tomato crosses are one of the easiest things in the world to think about.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 7, 2017 20:25:14 GMT -5
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Post by walt on Feb 8, 2017 13:33:44 GMT -5
S. pimpinnellifolium has smaller seeds than domestic tomatoes. If seed size is really the reason for crossing difficulty, then it might cross with the wilds better. I think there are other reason(s) the cross is difficult. Especially the self-incompatablity genes. That wouldn't mean that seed size is part of the problem.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 8, 2017 20:17:09 GMT -5
S. pimpinnellifolium has smaller seeds than domestic tomatoes. If seed size is really the reason for crossing difficulty, then it might cross with the wilds better. I think there are other reason(s) the cross is difficult. Especially the self-incompatablity genes. That wouldn't mean that seed size is part of the problem. That was kindof my thinking as well. But Dar Jones was the only one who talked about it and the only thing he mentioned was seed size incompatibility. But i was thinking that if one used self-compatible wild tomatoes like S. galapagense, S. cheesmaniae, and S. pimpinnellifolium as the female parent that one might have more success just in case there is a seed size thing going on. Couldn't hurt anyway. The worst you could do would be to still have a low success rate. Best case scenario is that you could get some hybrids. I also have a theory that inter-specific hybrids themselves are easier to cross as well. In this case what i mean by that is that if a cross between two self-incompatible species were able to be made (perhaps s. peruvianum x habrochaites, or habrochaites x pennellii, or pennellii x peruvianum, etc.) that those hybrids themselves would be in a state of genetic flux and might be easier to cross to a female domestic. Just a theory i have. Could be wrong, but i'd love for someone to try it. Maybe akin to Joseph's interspecies squash project. |
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