Squash Talk

[diane]

It's a bit early to be eating maximas here. Have yours cured long enough for good flavour?

[gilbert]

Hi Joseph and everyone,

Thanks for the suggestions! I think I cured them long enough; it has been about 2 months since the vines died and I harvested. And most of the larger squash were superb, so they had had enough curing time. As far as ripeness, I think some of the small squash are unripe versions of the larger ones based on looks, but some of them seem ripe; fully colored, glossy, and hard. I'd doubt that they were all immature, though I guess it is a possibility. And again, they were not "bad" just not very interesting and fairly watery, unlike the larger ones, which were dense and rich tasting. Now that I think about it, they did taste rather like a zucchini or other immature squash.

Wouldn't immature squash have rotted by now? I only had one squash rot in storage, and they are not in an idea location.

Also, there is a wide range of shapes and colors, so they are not all from a few parent plants.

No big deal, I'm just leaving them out of the seeds for next year. I think I'd prefer larger squash in any case.

And that is an interesting article! Tetsukabuto is on my list of things to grow next year; I may plant them with some mospermia squash, just to see what happens . . .

[Joseph Lofthouse]

There are two types of seeds in my landrace maxima population: A white fibrous seed, and a brown woody seed. It has seemed to me like the white seeds germinate quicker than the brown. A week ago, I separated brown and white seeds and did germination testing on them separately. Then counted how many had germinated each day.

On average, the brown seeds took 3 days longer to germinate. So that's got me wondering if I want to select for white seeds only -- speculating that it might reduce the days to maturity of my squash by 3 days. Seems like a small amount, but every little bit helps in a cold short-season garden.

From the time the white seeds were at 50% germination till they were at 100% was also 3 days. I wonder if that is heritable? What if I pre-sprouted a batch of white seeds, and only planted out the first 20% to germinate? Might that also tend towards selecting for quicker germinating seeds? Would that reduce days to maturity by another 3 days? or 4?

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Dec 3, 2017 12:03:43 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

It has seemed to me like the white seeds germinate quicker than the brown. So that's got me wondering if I want to select for white seeds only -- speculating that it might reduce the days to maturity of my squash by 3 days. Seems like a small amount, but every little bit helps in a cold short-season garden. I wonder if that is heritable? What if I pre-sprouted a batch of white seeds, and only planted out the first 20% to germinate? Might that also tend towards selecting for quicker germinating seeds? Would that reduce days to maturity by another 3 days? or 4?

Interesting idea and postulation. Will be watching this white seed selection with interest...

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Dec 2, 2017 15:42:10 GMT -5 gilbert said:

Hi Joseph and everyone,

Thanks for the suggestions! I think I cured them long enough; it has been about 2 months since the vines died and I harvested. And most of the larger squash were superb, so they [may have] had enough curing time. And again, they were not "bad" just not very interesting and fairly watery, unlike the larger ones, which were dense and rich tasting. Now that I think about it, they did taste rather like a zucchini or other immature squash.

Wouldn't immature squash have rotted by now? I only had one squash rot in storage, and they are not in an idea location.

Also, there is a wide range of shapes and colors, so they are not all from a few parent plants.

No big deal, I'm just leaving them out of the seeds for next year. I think I'd prefer larger squash in any case.

It's possible you cured them long enough, then again perhaps not. "long enough" is arbitrary. Perhaps they were cured long enough to your liking and sweetness and uses. Though like the conversation in the other thread about the wild watermelon hybrids, not all squash probably mature at the same rate. I suspect that some squash might get more sweet over time and if that was the case perhaps you ate them too soon. On the other hand though perhaps you were fine. You don't want to wait so long that the squash get dry and inedible from sitting too long. But my point is that we don't know for sure. Since you described them as watery i suspect that if you left them for considerable months longer they would have been just as good as your non-storing types of squash you grew. But i don't have enough squash experience to know for sure. Others who grow insane amounts of squash would be better suited to chime in than i. Though i would like to learn.

[walt]

Joeseph.  You clearly know your way around a garden, and I am shy about suggesting something, but befoe going to all white seeds, I'd check to see if the white seeds are linked to any quality or other traits.  Linkage doesn't always break down quickly.
Other things being equal, of course, 3 days do matter, some years more than others.  Some years on some crops  in some places, 3 days make all the difference.
Maybe just notice correlations as you open squash to eat this winter.  Maybe I'm concerned about nothing.
Are the white and tan mixed in the same squash?  It sounded like they are, in which case maybe you already know it isn't related to quality.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

walt: Thank you for the reminder. Each fruit only has one type of seed in it, either white or brown. I only allow white seeds in my buttercup population. That's my earliest maturing maxima. That might have more to due with being small fruited than white-seeded. I also call the buttercups my favorite tasting. This year, the two squash that I selected as "best tasting" from the medium maximas had brown seeds. They also had dark green skin.

Perhaps an easy way to test without putting the whole population at risk would be to sort seeds by color, and plant a row of each in the
same field on the same day, and compare them during the growing season and for culinary traits later on. The general maxima populations are about half of each color seeds right now.

I've got a couple dozen squash to open yet this year, so I'll try to pay attention.

Some years ago I was having problems with hard-seeds in my watermelons and a variety of beans. Some percentage of the seeds would germinate weeks or months later than the rest. So I pre-germinated the seeds, and put out transplants only from those that germinated quickly. A technique like that might work even on the brown seeds. I hesitate to completely throw away the brown seeds, because if nothing else they are a sign of genetic diversity. Perhaps they are more resistant to soil fungus, or mice, or bugs, etc...

[reed]

I had some of both types of seed in my pack, I planted some of both but either the trait doesn't always stay true or the white ones didn't like it here cause all of mine had the tan colored seeds. Unfortunately the one that is pretty much totally immune to the mildew disease wasn't especially tasty, not bad just not as good as the others. I'll plant some of it next year anyway. Actually they all had very good tolerance to the mildew but that one had none of it.

Only have one left to eat, it is dark green with orange streaks and they are better than the yellow mildew immune ones. A somewhat flattened one with very dark green skin and takes a chisel to open was really really good but I just got one from that vine.

My best squash is an acorn of forgotten origin. Only problem is the good part is just a thin layer around a big seed cavity. Probably not more than 1/2 inch thick and it gets mildew real bad. 

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

i haven't grown as much squash as those here, but i kinda associate the brown seeds with hard shelled Maximas like Hubbards. Thats not to say the brown seed is linked to hard shells but that is what is associated in my mind. I also think the brown are thicker shelled seeds, so it makes sense they would take longer to germinate. Seemed to be a dominant trait? Perhaps the brown seeds are thicker/harder shelled and would help protect them from harsher winters and animals, etc.?

[oxbowfarm]

Whatever the thicker brown coat is adapted to protect the seed from, its definitely not mice or other rodents. A deer mouse can chew into a hickory nut without difficulty, those brown seed coats are basically tissue paper by comparison.

[walt]

Nov 22, 2017 14:12:51 GMT -5 reed said:

I don't know what the bugs here are. Also don't know if they are recent arrivals or if they were always around in smaller numbers. Anyway they are some kind of stink bug looking thing that swarm over a plant. They have a piercing mouth part and kill a plant almost overnight. I'm not sure that they can fly, I'v never seen them do it. When they sense danger they drop off or hide underneath. I doubt they would be completely thwarted by trellises but it would certainly be easier to find and smash em. I turned the chickens into a heavily infested patch one time to no avail, they didn't eat em, stupid chickens.

Sounds like what folks around here call squash bugs.  I've never looked them up.  Doesn't always kill the plants in one day, but one look will tell you the plants are doomed.  MIGHT live another day or two.
I have seen a bunch of them moving across my garden and stopping when they get to a squash plant.  I wonder if they would be able to find a single trunk of a trellised squash less easily than a squash plant laying out over several square feet.  
I really doubt if trellising would help..  I think they navigate by smell.  I don't try to grow much squash any more.  I'm lucky to get even one squash before the bugs kill a plant.  Zuccinis are an exception.  They make some summer squash before dying.  I didn't like zukes much until a couple of year ago when some one gave us a jar of Zuccini pickles.  Excellent!  I also like zuccini bread and dried zuccini chips.  
I've conciderred using insecticide, but I don't want to be using it routinely, and by the time I see the first squash bug, it's too late.

I've conciderred planting buffalo gourd around the garden as a trap crop.  If they attracted the bugs and the bugs stopped and stayed there even a day, maybe I could do something about them before they get to the domestic squash.

[reed]

I also considered stopping growing squash but decided to try to find or breed some the bugs don't bother as much. I also don't intend to use any chemicals. That's why I don't care about the specific identification of a particular bug or disease, I'm not gonna buy or use the recommended cure anyway so it doesn't matter.

[steev]

Walt: have you tried sliced zucchini in your salad?

[gilbert]

I think I've figured my squash problem. I weighed some of the smaller squash, and found that they were around 1-2 pounds, which is quite undersized for even the small landrace, which according to Joseph's seed list should be around 3-5 pounds. So they must have not fully matured, due to the very bad weather we had this year.

Genetically, they may be very tasty, which is great; if I have a warmer year, I'll get a much higher yield of top quality squash.

[walt]

Dec 6, 2017 0:15:40 GMT -5 steev said:

Walt: have you tried sliced zucchini in your salad?

No, but I'll try it.