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Post by reed on Feb 12, 2018 18:08:23 GMT -5
I'd like to start a sub discussion on the merits of using teosinte introgression to corn sinilar to the wild tomato breeding project. What merits do you see? I personally think the tassels above the top of the cobs are very clever and could potentially help reduce unpollinated ears. Reed seems to maybe like the high branching and side cobs? Are there any other merits? I also thing it would be cool to transfer the gray mottled or green mottled seed coat pattern from teosinte into modern maize and also cool to backcross a colored flint corn seed coat into teisinte. P.s. reed you can edit the subject line of your original post if you want the thread to have the missing letter "r" for neandercorn. It occurred to me based on the growth habit of the Neandercorn that it might be fairly easy to create what I'm calling for now at least, Indeterminate Sweet Corn. Sweet corn were the same plant produces ears continually over a period of several weeks rather than all at once. "I personally think the tassels above the top of the cobs are very clever and could potentially help reduce unpollinated ears." I'm not sure yet on the advantage of the tassel ears except that they are cool looking but you are correct they definitely continue contributing pollen long after the main tassel has stopped. I hadn't really considered that but certainly could be an advantage. "Reed seems to maybe like the high branching and side cobs?Yes, I love that. If they all came on and matured at the same time it would probably not be good, perhaps just resulting in a lot of tiny ears. It doesn't do that though. Plants grew new ears after I had already harvested others. It is one of the main things that makes me think "Indeterminate Sweet Corn" is possible "Are there any other merits?"Probably and maybe some obstacles too, I don't have enough experience with it yet. Certainly the possibility of perennial corn comes to mind. That's one reason I want to recreate a new z mays x z diploperennis F1. The GRIN web site has a number of crosses. Ames 13502 and 3 which I think is the origin of Neandercorn and interestingly one done in Hawaii (PI65287). The reason that one is interesting is in their notes they say it has been grown for a few generations and that z diloperennis was the pollen parent of the original cross(es). They go on to say " Has not segregated perennial plants which is surmised to be related to the fact that the population has the maize cytoplasm." So, I guess, if I want to encourage the possibility of perennial corn then the zea diploperennis has to be the mommy of the F1. All that sound fun as heck to attempt and I certainly will but it isn't critical for the current goal. They also have two ascensions of wild zea diploperennis. I have never tried to get anything from them but may look into it. "I also thing it would be cool to transfer the gray mottled or green mottled seed coat pattern from teosinte into modern maize and also cool to backcross a colored flint corn seed coat into teisinte.
"Those would be interesting projects but I'v decided to pull the Neandercorn out of my field corn mix. I'm thinking I would rather keep it as a crop that matures all at once. "P.s. reed you can edit the subject line of your original post if you want the thread to have the missing letter "r" for neandercorn."I did  . |
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Post by reed on Feb 15, 2018 9:45:43 GMT -5
I found pictures and descriptions of z diploerennis that indicate it gets very large in it's native habit. In one picture it looked almost like a big clump of bamboo. But then I found this picture from a botanical garden in Copenhagen which if I remember my geography correctly is a pretty fer piece from Mexico. That pot it is in looks to be sized such that is doable in my south facing kitchen windows, also easily portable.  I also found a couple other threads here on the forum where folks discussed prior work with this and other teosinte species. Some of that info was that z diploerennis needs in range of 150 days to mature and daylight periods of less than 12 hours to bloom. (I took that to mean it takes that long for it to mature to the point it can bloom. Is that correct?) I looked up day length chart for my latitude and daylight doesn't fall below 12 hours until the end of September. I'm thinking I could plant z diploerennis in pots, perhaps a little larger than the one they are using above and keep it in the full hot sun on the front patio and pay good attention to watering and feeding with dissolved chicken poo. If I start it immediately, as in this weekend (2/17/18) I can give it in the range of it's 150 days by mid August. At that point I can cover the windows in my shed and move the pots in there everyday to drop the light to below 12 hours. It shouldn't be hard by using staggered plantings of sweet corns to have some pollen and silks available to try crosses in both directions assuming of course the plan for getting flowering on the z diploerennis is successful. If I do succeed in crossing by say, late August that will likely be in time to mature seed outside and if not no problem to bring both crossed species inside to finish up. What I would really like to know but don't, if pollination of the z diploerennis works do they have to remain in the controlled day length condition or can they be put back outside? |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 15, 2018 13:57:06 GMT -5
yeah, 150 days might be pretty close. Though i feel like much of that is determined by the daylight sensitivity and could probably be shortened if you darkened a bit early, say 3 weeks before you wanted them to silk/tassel. I think using the Z. diploperennis as the mother would be a great idea! Especially if the perennial nature is maternally inherited, though sometimes the wild species, like tomatoes, are picky about pollen susceptibility and i do not know if it can only be a one-direction cross or not with teosinte.
Z. diploperennis has been more bushy and tangled when i grew it.
man, now i want to experiment with teosinte again! I love all the teosinte species. Zea parviglumis is the ancestor most related to corn, some corn has zea mexicana ancestry though, and others have crazy amount of tillers. too bad there is not a modern corn with twice as many chromosomes, because then you could also try crosses with Zea perennis (also perennial but with double the chromosomes i think).
i'm fairly certain that if you can do the cross early and you have plenty of heat left in your season that you could put them outside to mature just fine. Perhaps even planting them and getting them out of that pot. I reccomend the largest pots you can find! Like for large trees! The pot in that photo is inadequate by far. Though maybe you would still get small seeds even from a stressed plant, so i who knows.
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Post by reed on Feb 15, 2018 18:13:47 GMT -5
Maybe it does only work one way, that would explain why it was done that way in Hawaii. Still there might be an advantage in a 1/2 sweet F1 for a sweet project.
The other way is critical though I think for the perennial nature of descendants at least if I understand it right. I'v read that such maternal traits are just contentiously passed down. If that is the case an F1 could be back crossed to sweet again and the F2 and so on and still keep that trait although even if works I don't expect winter hardiness in my climate. However an exceptional plant, flavor or production wise might be kept in a root cellar or the like.
I do want to keep the multi branched habit and the staggered maturity. I might have thought that to be a waste of effort, that all you would get is a bunch of tiny ears. Seeing neandercorn grow this year makes me think that might not be the case, there quite a few ears in 7 - 8 inch range.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 16, 2018 15:29:08 GMT -5
Maybe it does only work one way, that would explain why it was done that way in Hawaii. Still there might be an advantage in a 1/2 sweet F1 for a sweet project. The other way is critical though I think for the perennial nature of descendants at least if I understand it right. I'v read that such maternal traits are just contentiously passed down. If that is the case an F1 could be back crossed to sweet again and the F2 and so on and still keep that trait although even if works I don't expect winter hardiness in my climate. However an exceptional plant, flavor or production wise might be kept in a root cellar or the like. I do want to keep the multi branched habit and the staggered maturity. I might have thought that to be a waste of effort, that all you would get is a bunch of tiny ears. Seeing neandercorn grow this year makes me think that might not be the case, there quite a few ears in 7 - 8 inch range. I think it's worth trying anyway. But even if it happened to be one-directional, an F1 hybrid might be compatible backcrossing to the wild parent and selection could go from there. It is also possible that other teosinte hybrids might be compatible as well. I'm still excited to see what various teosinte projects come from this. Yes, "neandercorn" is from USDA GRIN accessions Ames 13502 and Ames 13503. I requested them myself several years ago before sending them off to joseph. I remember seeing some wrinkled kernels (from teosinte influence) and a few with more dark orange-ish colored kernels from the original batch that i dont think have made it over into the seed grown by joseph. It may be worthwhile to request samples of these same accessions again and use visual selection to identify kernels with more teosinte heritage than the others. Also glancing at some accessions these ones look particularly interesting: Ames 21860 (Believed to be a temperate selection from Zea mays subsp. mexicana Race Nobogame and Gaspe Flint Maize selected to resemble the teosinte parent.) PI 566677 (Race Central Plateau. Hybrid swarm. Associated with hybrid corn and sorghum. 2nd/and 3rd backcrosses.) PI 639928 (Extracted from BC4 population involving selected accession of teosinte (Zea diploperennis)) PI 639930 (Extracted from BC4 population involving selected accession of teosinte (Zea diploperennis)) PI 639931 (Extracted from BC4 population involving selected accession of teosinte (Zea diploperennis)) PI 639932 (Extracted from BC4 population involving selected accession of teosinte (Zea diploperennis)) PI 652867 (Composite based on hybrids with perennial teosinte, Zea diploperennis) PI 566682 (Race Chalco. Many F1s, few backcrosses.) Ames 21851 (Believed to be a temperate selection from Zea mays subsp. mexicana Race Nobogame and Gaspe Flint Maize selected to resemble the teosinte parent) Ames 21852 Ames 21856 Ames 21857 PI 566685 (Race Chalco. Associated with maize short season Chalqueno.) Ames 32909 Zea Synthetic (BC1 populations of 11 Zea mays subsp. parviglumis gametes crossed and backcrossed with B73. The expected parentage of this population is 38% B73, 2% each other maize inbred, and 12% teosinte. This population has been random mated 7 times.) IF you request and grow any of these. please let me know. I am tempted to request some myself... EDIT: p.s. i meant i think the 150 days to maturity is from planting to mature seed. |
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Post by reed on Feb 17, 2018 8:07:58 GMT -5
I don't think I'll request any of them from GRIN although they certainly do look interesting. I'm just gonna see what I can do with the seed I already have. If the 150 days on the z diploperennis means time till mature seed then my season is plenty long enough, just have to deal with the day length issue. Shouldn't be too hard to make a new F1 with short season sweets as the mothers. I'll be using my sweet mix, so I won't know a specific variety of the mother(s). What ever is blooming at the appropriate time is what I'll use. If it works the other way too that will be icing on the cake.
I'm new to GRIN and am looking at a couple eastern flour corns. I'm afraid to ask for more than one or two things since I have never contacted them before, don't want to appear greedy.
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Post by walt on Feb 17, 2018 13:47:51 GMT -5
.............. What I would really like to know but don't, if pollination of the z diploerennis works do they have to remain in the controlled day length condition or can they be put back outside? No. Once ears or tassels are started forming, they are on their way. If long days return, they will stop making new tassels and ears, but the ones already started will finish. At least those that are well enough started to notice will. I guess there might be a point where the plant isn't decided and it could make incomplete tassels or ears. But that is just guesswork. Those I saw that were for sure started on their way went ahead and did their thing. It has been over 30 years since I grew Z. diploperennis. We made crosses in the greenhouse during the winter, or put barrels over plants as we left work at 5 PM, and took them off when we arrived at 8 AM. That worked well enough. I had second generation Z. dip.. with Stawberry popcorn, Country Gentleman, Golden Bantam, Gaspe Flint, O'odham 60 Day flour, tripsicum intrgressed corn, and others. We wanted, and had, a diverse population. Then the word came from on high that we were dropping perennial corn in favor of perennial sorghum and pure tripsicum. Bummer. But we were over worked and under paid. Something had to go. We grew Z. dip. in 5 gal. buckets. Same with F1. F2 we grew outside in the ground during the summer. Z. dip. is native to cloud forest. Pure Z. dip, its F1, and F2 needed lots of water. |
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Post by reed on Feb 17, 2018 14:56:22 GMT -5
.............. What I would really like to know but don't, if pollination of the z diploerennis works do they have to remain in the controlled day length condition or can they be put back outside? No. Once ears or tassels are started forming, they are on their way. If long days return, they will stop making new tassels and ears, but the ones already started will finish. At least those that are well enough started to notice will. I guess there might be a point where the plant isn't decided and it could make incomplete tassels or ears. But that is just guesswork. Those I saw that were for sure started on their way went ahead and did their thing. It has been over 30 years since I grew Z. diploperennis. We made crosses in the greenhouse during the winter, or put barrels over plants as we left work at 5 PM, and took them off when we arrived at 8 AM. That worked well enough. I had second generation Z. dip.. with Stawberry popcorn, Country Gentleman, Golden Bantam, Gaspe Flint, O'odham 60 Day flour, tripsicum intrgressed corn, and others. We wanted, and had, a diverse population. Then the word came from on high that we were dropping perennial corn in favor of perennial sorghum and pure tripsicum. Bummer. But we were over worked and under paid. Something had to go. We grew Z. dip. in 5 gal. buckets. Same with F1. F2 we grew outside in the ground during the summer. Z. dip. is native to cloud forest. Pure Z. dip, its F1, and F2 needed lots of water. Thanks, Walt. I bet no amount of internet searching in general would have answered that question but here on the forum all a fella has to do is ask. If I might trouble you again, I was intending to start my z dip. seeds almost immediately, do you think that is necessary or should I wait a little while? Just to confirm, in your work, you had F1s with z. dip. as the mothers? |
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Post by walt on Feb 20, 2018 12:58:06 GMT -5
If you have enough light, I'd start the seeds as soon as possible. Z. dip, and F1 hybrids if I remember right, could start blooming while pretty small, for corn, a couple feet tall. And they would keep getting bigger, from new shoots, untill unfavorable conditions made them go dormant.
I had crosses both ways. I liked using domestic as swwd parent, as they gave many more seeds per pollination. But I did both just in case it mattered. I used a wide variety of domestics as I was concerned about pollen rejection via ca ganes. I never was sure about % pollination success, as I was spreading pollen pretty thin. I had many more domestic plants than Z. dip.
One problem will be ib the F2. The seeds will be too big for the cupules they form in. Those are the woody case the seeds form in. So the seeds grow out through the opening and half ormore of the seed will be outside and half inside. Thus the seeds is figure 8 shape, and easily breaks in half. The embryo side of the seed will grow if started in reasonablly clean conditions. I don't remembwe for sure if it was F2 seed or seeds on F2 plants. But this was another reason to use domestic as seed parent.
With practice, we found that the woody case could be opened easily by clipping the case at the top with finger nail clippers. Or toe nail clippers, depending on case size.
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Post by reed on Mar 16, 2018 9:12:12 GMT -5
I went ahead almost a month ago and planted my z diploerennis seeds. I soaked them for a couple days in warm water in baggie taped the the back of the brick wall behind the wood stove and then planted on a heat mat in a south window. One shot up almost immediately and is about 5 inches tall now.  I finally got tired of waiting and dumped the others out and searched the dirt til I found them. I sacrificed one to dissection and couldn't tell for sure but I think it was still alive. The outer shell is very wood like and thick, easily an 1/8 inch in parts. It almost looks like these things open on an almost hinge like structure rather than splitting open like other seeds. I put the others back in a baggie on the heat mat and here is what they look like now. A couple have developed little points that they didn't have before. I'm in hopes that is indication the hinge is starting to open but really have no idea. It's been a long time it seems to me for a seed to sprout but I know some do take a while so I'll keep waiting.  |
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Post by walt on Mar 16, 2018 12:38:58 GMT -5
OK. Back in the day, Z. diploperennis and it hybrids germinated as fast as domestic corn. I did shell all the seeds first before planting. And I used a sterile planting mix on seeds that were in very short supply. I got to where even F1 seeds, where domestic was the seed parent, were abundant enough to plant directly in unsterilised soil. F2 seeds were always planted in normal soil. I did shell the F2 seeds because the F1 plants had hulls on their seeds, and sprouting embryos often broke off the seeds when the seeds germinated, as they tried to push out of the hulls.
I am sure my Z. diploperennis seeds were as pure as any anywhere, as I shared an office with Marty Bender who went along with Dr. Iltis to find the wild perennial corn.
I remember Marty talking about Dr. Iltis climbing out the widow of the buss, too impatient to wait for others to get out.
They had thought they were there to find wild Z. perennis, formerly thought to be extinct in the wild. It was a really big deal to find it in the wild again, and a whole buss load of scientists were along for the event. Imagine their joy at finding an entirely new (to scientists) species of corn.
They did find wild Z. perennis while they were in the area.
Dr. Iltis designed his own Christmas cards every year. Each time it had a drawing he'd made of an extinct species. A year before, it had been Z. perennis, not truely extinct, but believed to be extinct in the wild. One foreign student on his Christmas card list sent back a letter saying he knew the plant, it was in the area he grew up in. So Dr. Iltis got together a buss load of scientists, ecologists, biologists, corn breeders, and others. Marty Bender was one of them.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Mar 16, 2018 13:44:59 GMT -5
They are a little slower than corn. Be patient I'm sure you'll get several that sprout.
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Post by reed on Apr 2, 2018 7:25:16 GMT -5
My one z dip plant is over a foot tall now. I rinse the others in warm water every day and filed the hard woody shell a little thinking that might help but still waiting for another sprout. They don't have much longer till I'll need the heat mat for sweet potato seeds.
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Post by shmack1 on Apr 11, 2018 5:53:30 GMT -5
Oh wow I'm pumped I found this thread! I just received 2 accessions of zea dip today! I'm looking to cross it to zea mays, I'm in 28deg lat which is pretty similar to Mexico I believe? So I reckon i would have a fair chance of getting it to flower..
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Post by shmack1 on Apr 11, 2018 6:19:53 GMT -5
And I have about 220 frost free days with 12 hr days with about a month before frost hits..
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