Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 13, 2018 11:33:33 GMT -5
As it gets darker it's starting to look a lot like the flowers on purple podded parsley pea. Its been a few years since I grew that out, but I don't remember that striking white/red bicolor to start so that's more of an observation than an explanation. Always loved the venation on the standard/banner. It's funny/perfect you would bring that up! I'm actually growing Sugar Magnolia Tendril and have two Parsley Pea rogues/sports in the ground. They haven't flowered yet so I don't know what pod color I'll end up with, or even flowers for that matter. But one of the Sugar Magnolia flowered for the first time yesterday and yes, it looks nearly identical to your picture, and also nearly identical to what the once Red&White Cascadia has now morphed into. I'm writing up another post with pictures to post in a couple hours -- I just need to duck out to the garden and get one more picture and upload it before I do. my best guess is still this one. (http://data.jic.bbsrc.ac.uk/cgi-bin/pgene/default.asp?ID=584) But that does not explain how it got into your population. That's really become the main question. With each passing day, the blossom gets more and more 'purple.' I'll have pictures to show later today. But unlike normal purple flowered peas, it seems to start out without that pigment, and then develop it over time, perhaps due to my sunlight theory or some other cause. So, while still curious, the mystery as to what genes are acting on it seems at least partially solved, thanks to you. As for how it got into Cascadia, am I right to assume that this must be an accidental cross? Learning what I have so far from you all, the white flowers of Cascadia are recessive, so apart from an extremely rare random mutation, it's most likely that something crossed this pea at the seed farm with a variety that carries pigment in the flowers. The plant is exhibiting bush characteristics, so since tall is dominant (if I remember what little I recall from Mendel) then the cross was with a bush variety with colored flowers. Just spit balling here, but I'm always curious to know the possible parents of unexpected crosses, in the hopes that it will make understanding and predicting the F2/F3 etc easier. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 13, 2018 15:51:34 GMT -5
Not the best graphic, but I do love me some microsoft paint: The progression of the Red&White Cascadia flower
Not so red and white anymore. The yellow splodge or circle denotes the 2nd flower on the plant, which I'm anticipating will open tomorrow. Unlike the first flower, this one has been subjected to several days of 75-80 degree temperatures and direct sun. The first flower opened the day after a two day rainstorm we had (Monday + Tuesday). I'm curious to see if the 2nd flower will open red & white like the first, or go straight to purple tinged.
For comparison, here is one of my Sugar Magnolia Tendril flowers that opened yesterday (Friday). It exhibits almost identical coloration to the rogue Cascadia's after being open for 24+ hours. 
Still, the lower petals are less purple, but the upper petals have the characteristic purple hue. Also, both the rogue Cascadia and Magnolia have the red mark around the axils. Though the rogue Cascadia remains a bush plant and the sugar Magnolia is a rapidly climbing pole. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 13, 2018 19:19:00 GMT -5
orrrrr maybe it will open this afternoon:   New flower is the topmost one in the photos. Well, I guess that answers that. Alas, no white and red flower on this one. A very strange situation. Apart from the overcast days and heavy rain, I can't think of anything that could have caused such a different color expression between the two flowers. If anyone else has a theory I'd love to hear it. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 18, 2018 18:16:10 GMT -5
After several days, and several flowers automatically opening pink/purple, I found another Red & White one this afternoon:   As you can see from the high contrast photos, it was very bright out. The original forecast said yesterday and today were going to be cloudy, but that wasn't the case at all. So unless the pea flowers are getting their information direct from the weather report, I don't see how my sunlight theory holds up anymore. Curious that another flower would spontaneously open Red&White again, after several interim ones opening straight at pink/purple. Also, here's a picture of a pod from the first Red & White flower:  Now, on the genetics side of things, ... I'm having trouble understanding the different roles of A, A2 and B. I'm pretty certain B is the 'on' switch for anthocyanin production, without which purple flowers would be impossible (though salmon is still possible, somehow). How A and A2 fit in I'm getting tangled up on. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 18, 2018 22:33:48 GMT -5
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 20, 2018 13:07:26 GMT -5
I was thinking something like that originally too. What doesn't compute is the difference in temperature/weather conditions from the opening of the first one, to this newest one. One opened in cool weather, the other hot; one in wet weather, the other dry, etc. If there was some damn consistency I'd feel a lot more confident in any theory. It could still have some link to temperature, but unless the temperature dependency depends on widely fluctuating temperatures, I'm running out of ideas. I beginning to think these flowers are just messing with me xD |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 24, 2018 11:21:36 GMT -5
Now, on the genetics side of things, ... I'm having trouble understanding the different roles of A, A2 and B. I'm pretty certain B is the 'on' switch for anthocyanin production, without which purple flowers would be impossible (though salmon is still possible, somehow). How A and A2 fit in I'm getting tangled up on. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that "A" is the master switch color gene. Meaning you only need one dominant form of "A" to have color. Depending on what other color genes you have you can have color in pods, seeds, i think always you have color in the leaf axil area like you've mentioned (not aware of any that have color and do not have color here), tendrils, etc. If you only have "aa" then you have white flowers not because there is a white flower gene but because you have no color at all in the whole plant. "B" or is it "b"? is a modifier of "A". And some sort of epistasis is going on. Plants with "B" usualy have pink flowers (but in my experience bicolor white-pink), pink axil rings, and if they have the genes for purple pods, those pods will be lighter and will appear closer to red. according to the JIC the crimson one is suspected to be a variant of b, but they are not sure. Perhaps your plant is reacting to temp changes, or perhaps it has random genes switching on and off for other reasons. Some (or many or maybe all) purple podded peas have branches where the anythocyanin gets turned off and you have purple pods and green pods on the same plant. Perhaps something similar is going on here. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 18, 2018 15:36:46 GMT -5
andrew - somehow I missed your reply before -- only just seeing it now. Thanks for the gene help! I've definitely got to delve into this further, but that clears some things up. PS - you have the most stubborn username for tagging... I hope this gets to you somehow! Even when I type it was a capital A, it goes lowercase and doesn't link. Same with editing it. Jeepers. General update for the red&pea = General updateI've found that my Cascadia stock in general is riddled with crosses. I have the single purple flowered one, numerous inedible pods both in shelling and snow shape, bush and full height plants, and even some tender snow peas. Some of the peas inside have been candy sweet, others are as sour as a bitter bean. So, in a nutshell... the gene pool I have is a wreck. This appearance of colored flowers is likely not a spontaneous mutation in any way, but simply cross contamination. Just to see, I broke down and tasted one of the red and white pods -- inedible flesh, mildly sweet but otherwise uninspiring peas. I'll keep a few for breeding purposes, and I did sucessfully cross one of the pods with Golden Sweet (I think that was the father... I'd have to check). So I'll probably grow those out, too. I've marked the tender pod snow pea one as well for seed saving.
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Post by templeton on Feb 22, 2018 20:58:08 GMT -5
Hi Day, I wonder how your Cascadia got so mixed up? I find very little/no outcrossing in my peas. And what are you after with the golden sweet cross? I personally think my 'Joni's Taxi' (=golden sweet X Yakumo) is a better snow than the Golden Sweet we get here. I think Andrew and maybe Dumont have some seed I sent. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 22, 2018 21:16:51 GMT -5
templeton - The Cascadia was straight from a seed packet, so someone hungry bees and wasn't too keen on proper isolation practices. The cross between Cascadia and Gold (i think... still haven't checked) wasn't a goal oriented cross at all -- I spent last month learning how to cross peas, so it was a free for all with whoever was flowering/in proper bud stage. Those two just happened to be convenient at the time. I did tag the crosses though, and will grow a few for fun as time and space permit. I grew four varieties total: Sugar Snap, Cascadia, Golden Snow, and Sugar Magnolia Tendril. I tried to make sure I crossed each one a few times, but apart from that I just let myself play to learn. Joni's Taxi sounds interesting. I've never grown or heard of the Yakumo pea before. If I may loop the question back to you, what was the motivation behind your cross?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 22, 2018 23:11:37 GMT -5
yeah, 'Joni's Taxi' is one of the high ones on my list to grow out this year. I had too many to grow out last year that i just didn't have room for it, but i will this year. Gotta figure out what i can grow and which varieties to pick. I think the purple-seed hybrid and biskopens hybrids are probably high on the list as well. There are some good looking large yellow snow peas mixed in with the ones i was unofficially calling "Joseph's Yellows". I shared some seed of those with a few other people like gilbert and william i think. They would be unintended segregates from Joseph's original red-podded pea project with Sugar Magnolia. I wouldn't claim they would be better than 'Joni's Taxi', but they are almost certainly better than Golden Sweet. I didn't taste them, but they seemed to have the "pulverize to dust" trait which is a good sign. Not sure they have wrinkled seeds though, so probably could still be improved. Joni's Taxi is listed on the OSSI (open source seed initiative) website. |
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Post by templeton on Feb 23, 2018 3:08:49 GMT -5
templeton - The Cascadia was straight from a seed packet, so someone hungry bees and wasn't too keen on proper isolation practices. Joni's Taxi sounds interesting. I've never grown or heard of the Yakumo pea before. If I may loop the question back to you, what was the motivation behind your cross? Ah, a slippery slope, Day. That's how I started. I think I had just started reading here, after looking at the cross hemisphere dwarf tomato project, and like you, grew a pile of different peas, and just crossed what came to hand. Carol Deppe's book snuck in there very early. Yakumo is a tall, green, very large podded snow. Single flowers, no disease resistance. Just happened to be flowering at the time. Just had a bit of search, and all the listings I've seen are Australian, with one Chilean reference. I think it's got the wide pod gene, and a couple of long pod genes. I don't think it is hard to get a better yellow snow than golden podded. Mine is better just because i chose a slightly better parent, but there are lots of places still to go to get the best yellow snow. Like Andrew posted above, yellows turn up if you are looking for a red. And some of them would be worth exploring. Carol Deppe's idea of using a 'sweet when fully filled pod' pea with low fiber is one way to go - she suggests Oregon Giant Snowmann I think - I just haven't got round to doing that cross. (Well I have, but I haven't had time to grow it out. Pity we can't do a cross hemisphere pea project. Ah well.) Double flowers, more compact plants, earliness, disease resistance and for you guys in NorthAm, virus resistance would all be worth incorporating. Gregg |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 25, 2018 21:37:27 GMT -5
Ah, a slippery slope, Day. That's how I started. I think I had just started reading here, after looking at the cross hemisphere dwarf tomato project, and like you, grew a pile of different peas, and just crossed what came to hand. Carol Deppe's book snuck in there very early. Ha! Ain't that the truth. I say I'm crossing peas for the knowledge/fun of it, but come on, we all know I'm not kidding anyone. Crossing is a drug, and I'm thoroughly addicted. How does it go? First stage is denial, second is growing out the F1? XD Also, in regards to yellow podded peas, I have a strange question. Do your flowers open up all the way? I've found the Golden sweet flowers never flare out; they get full sized, just stay closed like little petal axes or something. I found it a bit odd. Wasn't sure if it was a fluke of this variety or a trait linked to the golden color. I've never seen the effect on a green pea before, with or without colored flowers. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Feb 26, 2018 0:11:14 GMT -5
Also, in regards to yellow podded peas, I have a strange question. Do your flowers open up all the way? I've found the Golden sweet flowers never flare out; they get full sized, just stay closed like little petal axes or something. I found it a bit odd. Wasn't sure if it was a fluke of this variety or a trait linked to the golden color. Great question Day. Its a pretty rare trait from what I've seen. You're not likely to encounter it with many other varieties. I suspect it is a recessive trait. It is not linked to yellow pods but Golden Sweet is the main variety that has it and just happens to be a yellow pod. I actually don't like it as it makes crossing peas more difficult and you can't enjoy the flowers. Rebsie mentions this oddity on her blog somewhere. I'll see if i can find it. daughterofthesoil.blogspot.com/2008/02/pea-breeding-project-golden-yellow.html?m=1daughterofthesoil.blogspot.com/2007/06/heritage-vegetable-review-pea-golden.html?m=1Opal Creek has it even more pronounced with white flowers, but it is descended from Golden Sweet so that is not surprising. |
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Post by templeton on Feb 26, 2018 0:44:05 GMT -5
I hadn't noticed the lack of opening - I will have a look next season, or maybe later this autumn if I get around to planting an autumn seed crop as I intended and don't get overwhelmed with work and study.
T
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