Where did my thread go?

[shmack1]

Hi all just wondering if anybody knows what happened to my thread "looking for help" I posted a few days ago???

[oxbowfarm]

If I had to guess, a mod deleted it.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

That would be my guess too. But i don't know why.

This is the only vague idea as to maybe why:

alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/7808/cautionary-tale

[Day]

If it was deleted by a mod, I hope they contact you (and us) and give a brief 'why.' If boards of this type are not allowed on the forum, it's something we all should know definitively. If it was for another reason, you should be made aware of the reason. As members of a forum we all agree to abide by a serious of rules and guidelines so that we all, as a team, can get the most out of our experiences here. We cannot respect these rules if we do not know what they are, or have to guess at them.

Perhaps it is posted somewhere, and I somehow missed it. Entirely possible. If so, it seems many others, including veterans of the site, have also missed it. In which case, it should probably be made much more visible.

[oxbowfarm]

Jan 13, 2018 11:15:55 GMT -5 Day said:

If it was deleted by a mod, I hope they contact you (and us) and give a brief 'why.' If boards of this type are not allowed on the forum, it's something we all should know definitively. If it was for another reason, you should be made aware of the reason. As members of a forum we all agree to abide by a serious of rules and guidelines so that we all, as a team, can get the most out of our experiences here. We cannot respect these rules if we do not know what they are, or have to guess at them.

Perhaps it is posted somewhere, and I somehow missed it. Entirely possible. If so, it seems many others, including veterans of the site, have also missed it. In which case, it should probably be made much more visible.

Well, technically the only person who sets the rules around here is Alan. However, Alan has basically no interest in what happens here anymore, its become quite clear. I'm just grateful that there are any mods at all. I don't even know if any of them are still logging in at all other than Joseph Lofthouse, maybe johno or orflo? Even ottawagardener is gone. So I'm pretty reluctant to criticize a mod for deleting a thread where a guy was arguably asking people to break regs of his home country.

Its entirely possible that seeds from US based HG folks have made it to OZ and back over the years. Some may even have had reciprocal breeding projects going? Who can say? Possibly even whole beanbags have been crocheted and filled with contraband? There are rumors of things like this.

But having a brand new member with a couple of posts ask for Joseph's seeds when Joseph won't sell them to him is a little pushy. I could see a mod deleting something like that. Its nice to prove you are a real person with real plants growing before you ask for a favor like that. Maybe.

[walt]

Jan 13, 2018 13:39:47 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Jan 13, 2018 11:15:55 GMT -5 Day said:

Its entirely possible that seeds from US based HG folks have made it to OZ and back over the years. Some may even have had reciprocal breeding projects going? Who can say? Possibly even whole beanbags have been crocheted and filled with contraband? There are rumors of things like this.

But having a brand new member with a couple of posts ask for Joseph's seeds when Joseph won't sell them to him is a little pushy. I could see a mod deleting something like that. Its nice to prove you are a real person with real plants growing before you ask for a favor like that. Maybe.

I run the Species Iris Group of North America annual seed sale.  We routinely trade seeds with 
Australia and New Zealand.  Only on species of seed  has been stopped.  That  is a species listed in USA as a noxoious weed.  In that case, the quarantine station emailed me and asked me if it should be destroyed or sent back at my expense.  The rest of the species in that shipment came right through.
One donor in France always sends seeds before I send out the permits to those sending seeds to the USA and his have never been intercepted.
While I send import permits to donors is Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.  None of them have sent me import permits for seeds going teir way.  And none have been stopped in the last 4 years I've been running the sale.  Before that I don't know.
I always fill out the paperwork the post office has me fill out saying what is in packages going out of country.  And post office sticks the list on the outside of the package where it can be read.  Everything has gone smoothly.

[Day]

Jan 13, 2018 13:39:47 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

So I'm pretty reluctant to criticize a mod for deleting a thread where a guy was arguably asking people to break regs of his home country.

If it's a legal issue, I'm in absolute agreement. I am ignorant regarding seed import regulations in Australia and haven't pretended otherwise. If the issue at hand is not about legality, but about bringing in a third party to assist in a transaction (or about the exchange of seeds for money on this forum) then I think there just needs to be some clarity on why the thread was deleted. What is, or isn't, allowed in that context? I'd like to know personally, so I don't inadvertently cause problems in the future myself. Also keeps people from feeling like they're being inexplicably targeted, all that jazz.

I have not criticized, nor will, the choice to delete the thread if it was warranted -- that is absolutely the moderators prerogative and burden to bear, and I appreciate their unpaid work hours. I am very happy my days of forum moderation on other sites are over; it's an endless job with little reward. If all this has fallen on Joseph Lofthouse's shoulders that is also unfortunate. I stress only that communication and explanation is paramount. Since this site lacks any officially posted rules, it's up to the moderators and members to define them, make them known, and pass them on.

Jan 13, 2018 13:39:47 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Possibly even whole beanbags have been crocheted and filled with contraband? There are rumors of things like this.

That's such a great visual. If it was done, then I'm sure it was done intentionally, but just imagine... ordering seeds from another country in ignorance and instead of a seed packet in the mail you get this giant bean bag chair. So you're just standing on your doorstep like huh... wouldja look at that.

Cut to: a bottle of wine, a hand lens, and a night spent crawling around playing seeds-in-the-haystack with the guts of a bean bag.

[orflo]

Shmack,
can you tell something about the thread you made? I certainly didn't delete anything, if it has been deleted I also would like to know why...
frank

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

I found this www.victoryseeds.com/au-allowed.html

But i don't know if it is up to date. My understanding of it is this: That pretty much only listed domestic varieties of vegetables or noxious invasive weeds are banned. Take tomatoes for example: it says Solanum lycopersicum and Solanum pimpinellifolium may be banned without extensive disease testing or something like that. BUT... other wild solanum species of tomato that are not on the restricted list can legally be sent (assuming the receiver has all import documentation required in place) as long as they are all properly labeled as such with latin names in case the package is opened and inspected.

[shmack1]

Orflo, basically I was asking for help from someone in the US to act as a third party and send me some of Joseph's seeds because he does not ship outside of the US. I have been a long time lurker of HG and was inspired by Joseph's methods to convert all my crops to landraces. We have very limited genetic diversity in Aus, and he shares some similarities in growing techniques and weather situations, so I would really like to get hold of some of those Landraces. I am only asking if someone is willing to help me as a fellow breeder. If that's not allowed on here I'm sorry..

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Jan 13, 2018 5:27:54 GMT -5 shmack1 said:

Hi all just wondering if anybody knows what happened to my thread "looking for help" I posted a few days ago???

I deleted it. I consider it to be a bad idea to discuss seed smuggling in public forums.
And especially when it's publicly proposing that I be part of a smuggling conspiracy.
alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/7808/cautionary-tale


Copying shoutbox comments to a thread:

Shoutbox
Day: I don't see it either; looks like either they deleted it, or it's been deleted by someone moderating. yesterday at 8:53am
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toomanyirons: Excuse my paranoia but what's to prove this was legitimate vs a sting operation by government meddlers? I have been in that situation myself wanting stuff from seed companies in Canada -> won't ship to U.S. Risky to help or to ask for such help publicly. yesterday at 12:30pm
x
Day: I understood it as shmack1 desiring lofthouse seeds, but lofthouse not wanting to ship abroad. So the help wanted wasn't to smuggle seeds into the country, but rather to do the US paperwork in place of Lofthouse, and ship them in his stead. yesterday at 12:45pm
x
Day: Of course it's possible I misunderstood. I also don't know Australian regulations or what's currently being allowed in/out of the country, so that could factor in as well. yesterday at 12:47pm
x
oxbowfarm: There's not much that you can legally import into OZ. toomanyirons are you saying shmack1 is a narc? I seriously doubt it. Why would the govt care what you're exporting? yesterday at 3:20pm *
x
toomanyirons: Day to import or export seeds legitimately between countries often involves paperwork and likely quarantine, which is why it is often done quietly and under the radar. So I hear, of course I have never done such things cough cough. yesterday at 3:20pm *
x
toomanyirons: oxbowfarm I was 75 percent joking. Why would .guv care about anything I do (or don't do), but they do. Never know these days, Big Brother is everywhere. LOL yesterday at 3:22pm *
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toomanyirons: My point is keep it under the radar. One should not be so conspicuous no matter how much a person may want something, it is simply not very wise. yesterday at 3:26pm *
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toomanyirons: It is my understanding that the only way for ordinary folks to get any plant material into OZ is to do it under the radar... yesterday at 3:34pm *
x
Day: It might be cool to have a thread on HG where people can post what they know about their country's seed import/export laws, their personal experiences, etc. I've not sent seeds outside US, so I'm not qualified to start it, but I would love to know more.

[shmack1]

"toomanyirons: Excuse my paranoia but what's to prove this was legitimate vs a sting operation by government meddlers? I have been in that situation myself wanting stuff from seed companies in Canada -> won't ship to U.S. Risky to help or to ask for such help publicly. "

Ha ha, this place is like one of those conspiracy theory forums ( which I used to read ) where everybody is a shill and nobody trusts anybody!! Just joking people..
Probably not the best idea to publicly announce what i wanted to do, but how else would I do it? I'm sure the shills are prioritised to more productive things like all those false flag operations we see on the media everyday, as apposed to a very small gardening and plant breeding forum. But I don't live in the US which is a very untrusting place, and probably rightly so..

[oxbowfarm]

I don't know if we traffic in conspiracy theories much here, but we do like to traffic in personal relationships. It might have helped your cause by participating a bit more on HG vs just asking for someone to ship you a bunch of seed to OZ in one of your first five posts. We'd like more people to participate here, at least I would. I'm interested in the gardening conditions downunder, and there are quite a few folks that are big posters here on HG that are from Australia. It might help you to network with them to see what kind of stuff they already have? Maybe somebody already has an OZ import permit (if there is such a thing). Or tips on how to LEGALLY acquire the stuff you desire.

I'm personally interested in your gardening goals, and why you think Joseph's stuff is perfect for them. I'd say that wherever you are in OZ, your bioregion is significantly different from northern Utah. Is there anyplace in OZ with winters like northern Utah? Or has that kind of elevation, or extreme short growing season? So stuff is going to need to adapt to your lower, hotter conditions (guessing).

The other option is to try and create your own landraces, where they are applicable. There's a lot of info on doing that here, and Joseph is a great resource here even if he isn't going to export seed to you. He didn't buy his landraces, he created him. To me the benefit of Joseph's landrace gardening project are his experiences vs the seeds themselves per se.

One thing to understand is that there have been fly by night members here on HG before, who show up ask for something special, and then disappear forever. There was the guy who bough 5 pounds of Gray's Glass Gem seed for $20 and turned around and sold it by the seed for ridiculous prices on ebay. I could go on.

[richardw]

Take it from me shmack1 this is no conspiracy theory forum, the OZ and NZ authorities watch very closely what the downunderville members are posting. Through a degree nescience in regard to the NZ import requirements i learnt the hard way, its not worth it trust me, knowing how much more stricter the Australian requirements are compared to here, could pay a heavy price. I heard of a guy in Melbourne who sneaked back in some tomato seed from Greece that had some disease, it was when that seed was grown and what ever disease it was had spread to the next door garden he got raided, the authorities ended up spraying out his property with a chemical so nasty that nothing grew for two+ years.

You may be better off to work with what ever varieties are already in the country, it might be no quicker anyway to develope your own landraces than to bring in from else where in the world, having to grow enough generations of it to adapt it to your environment could take just as long.  

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Jan 14, 2018 10:20:13 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

we do like to traffic in personal relationships. It might have helped your cause by participating a bit more on HG vs just asking for someone to ship you a bunch of seed to OZ in one of your first five posts. We'd like more people to participate here, at least I would. I'm interested in the gardening conditions downunder, and there are quite a few folks that are big posters here on HG that are from Australia. It might help you to network with them to see what kind of stuff they already have? Maybe somebody already has an OZ import permit (if there is such a thing). Or tips on how to LEGALLY acquire the stuff you desire.

I'm personally interested in your gardening goals, and why you think Joseph's stuff is perfect for them. I'd say that wherever you are in OZ, your bioregion is significantly different from northern Utah. Is there anyplace in OZ with winters like northern Utah? Or has that kind of elevation, or extreme short growing season? So stuff is going to need to adapt to your lower, hotter conditions (guessing).

+1 i agree. I too would like to hear about your conditions and breeding goals and interests. That is true! There are actually several members here that garden Down Under in either AU or NZ and many of them may already have some of Joseph's seeds and/or better or just as good seeds of varieties they have imported and/or bred themselves. I know raymondo had some good stuff awhile back, and rowan comes to mind with some awesome seeds of original [Australian] origin i think. Also templeton..

I see that shmack1 did start to post some legitimate posts about his gardening and interests right after that initial post asking for help. So, in one sense it looked like he was trying to get involved and stick around. Though you are right there have been "fly-bys" before, and that is a shame. I think such people are found on all gardening forums to some extent.