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Post by galina on May 30, 2017 1:51:44 GMT -5
My take on Sugar Magnolia is that it's not a stable (fully inbred) variety, so green pods keep showing up. Yes I have seeds from two different sources and one batch has been very good. Up to now ........ Unfortunately that type seems to be changing now too. What variety has the most stable purple in your opinion, Joseph Lofthouse ?
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 13:37:54 GMT -5
and galina, yes you would think that having one of each dominant genes would be enough, and in theory they might be. But yes i seem to remember something about at least one of them, perhaps PUR being only splotchy with one dose and more complete coverage with a double dose. But yeah, as Templeton say's it's possible they will fill out more complete as they mature. Thank you both. No chance for further infilling on these two types of F1. The F1 of the cross with the snap is more purple, the cross with the mangetout is barely purple at the edges. We can only hope that later pods will be a bit better. The first pods on both are today bigger and we can see clearly what is or rather what is not. Double dose of Pur needed. I saved seeds last year from the same Sugar Magnolia plants I used in the cross. The pods for seed were actually pretty uniformly dark. I shared seeds and just now had a report from one grower who had purple as well as greenish pods from those seeds and wanted to query this with me. Environmental? It will be interesting to see what happens. I will also repeat the cross and as it happens, I have Opal Creek growing as well. White flowers but another possible cross. Why is it so easy to get proper full reliable red for shelling peas and not for mangetouts or snaps? I am also growing Mrs Lei, a pink flowered mangetout pea and this is another possible candidate for a cross with Sugar Magnolia.
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 5:10:58 GMT -5
Let's assume the "worst" case scenario. Sugar Magnolia is a really good purple to work with, so you are pretty good there, as it should have AA PURPUR and PUPU. Let's assume that the yellow snow that you crossed it with had white flowers which would mean it was aa purpur pupu. Then that means all your F1's would be partially purple with a genome of Aa PURpur PUpu. If by chance your yellow mangetout peas actually had purple flowers then your actually a little better off with AA but would still probably have partially purple pods as i seem to remember joseph talking about needing a fully homozygous double doze of at least one of the purple genes PUR or PU but ideally both to get super good purple coverage. So basically you probably would have gotten splotchy purple pods in the F1 no matter what. But that's okay, just keep growing them out. There is still a good chance you will get some in the F2's and certainly in the F3's i would think. Just watch for the best coloured pods in the F2 as they probably are homozygous for at least PUR or PU or both. Thank you keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) and I appreciate your post for unscrambling this for me. Both yellows are purple flowered. AA PUR PUR PU PU x AA pur pur pu pu should be AA Pur pur Pu pu in the F1. There ought to be both dominant Pur and Pu (with A) present in the F1 cross which in principle should be purple, but this may still not actually amount to a full purple in the phenotype born out by experience from this group. I appreciate the surprising concept of a double dose of purple genes. Backcross to Sugar Magnolia if need be? Hmm. Food for thought. I'll keep you all in the loop what happens in the F2 generation.
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Post by galina on May 29, 2017 4:52:38 GMT -5
Galina, what is the pattern of partial colouration? Is it the same on all plants, or are some dusted with purple, while others have seams and blotches? Recall purple pod needs A, Pur and Pu, all dominant. Were your yellows purple flowered? If so they carried A, so your F1s would be AA. Questions then arise about Pur and Pu. In my experience, these can be variably expressed. I think it's Pur that has variable expression - would need to check the JIC database. I think Steve posted about checking for Pur by looking at the funiculis in the pod - the little stalk that connects the developng pea to the inner pod seam. I had a look at one of mine yesterday by chance - snipped it off by mistake - and there is a tiny bit of colour at the base of the thread. Don't worry. In my early purple podded lines I got some half purples that went on to develop full purple in later generations. Not all, mind you so i still dont fully understand it. I'm surprised that all yours are half P. They do develop different colour as they age, and on different pods up the culm, so wait a while. T Thank you templeton, it is a little difficult to tell on the second cross, as there is barely a hint of purple edging on the tiny pods, but the first one is definitely blocky. Green blotchy centre with purple edging. We are a long way off looking at funiculi at this stage where the first pods have only just set. Yes Court Estate Gold is my large yellow mangetout/snow pea and Charlie's Goldsnap is the snap I developed from CEG and Amish Snap. Both are purple flowered. Yes I will wait a while, but the pods on the cross with the mangetout will not develop to full purple, the others might. I will know more in a day or two. I needed a bit of encouragement not to scratch the new crosses. Thank you. Will make note of funiculi when the time comes and take it to the F2 generation. Starting to run out of purple podded options that aren't shellers.
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Post by galina on May 28, 2017 17:53:24 GMT -5
Last year I made crosses with the snap pea with the most solid purple I know, to get over the loss of colour I had with the red pea project based on Shiraz pollen. I used Alan Kapuler's Sugar Magnolia. Crossed it with a yellow mangetout pea/snow pea and secondly with a yellow podded snap pea. I am growing the F1s this year. I have partially purple pods in all 6 plants of both crosses. Is this what you would expect or have I had another loss of purple colour (which would mean no proper red colour in the F2 is possible) and should start again?
I don't know how to interpret this F1 phenotype.
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Post by galina on May 24, 2017 9:32:22 GMT -5
Merci Beaucoup mon ami. Much appreciated
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Post by galina on May 24, 2017 9:30:44 GMT -5
galina, sorry - Dropbox has changed all my folders around, so my pictures have disappeared from view recently. Give me a few weeks I'll get it sorted. The crux of the Lamprechts research was that there were multiple alleles for the purple pigment. So, there is full purple then medium then light then none. I think I prefer the explanation in Bogdanovas paper that the Pur or Pu is a modifier. Shiraz is interesting, it forms a distinct parchment layer especially with heat - but crosses to ppVV maintaining the dry shrunken pod characteristic indicating snow phenotype. I cannot explain that one... Thank you for the summary steve1. I haven't found that in Shiraz and none of the crosses with Shiraz and Court Estate Gold (snow pea/ mangetout pea) have ever had any fibre. But then it probably doesn't get all that hot here which may make a difference. Spontaneous mutations from p to P and v to V are not uncommon I believe and maybe heat is a trigger for those.
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Post by galina on May 24, 2017 9:26:00 GMT -5
Keen101, thank you for your observations. Yes I am switching from Shiraz to Alan Kapuler's Sugar Magnolia which does seem to be more constant in its purples. And I prefer its vigour and flavour too, a perfect pea were it not for the single podded trait.
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Post by galina on May 24, 2017 9:13:49 GMT -5
Keen, Ooooh, even the tendrils are half red. What a beauty!
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Post by galina on May 13, 2017 17:39:45 GMT -5
Yes and I really wonder now where the borderline between Perlzwiebel Minogue and the Perennial Leek is. Yes the leeks are a bit bigger, but not an awful lot. And with a bit of extra breeding ........... who knows. I will let you know how my largest Minogues fare and how much they split and whether the splits are as big as the plants they split off from. At the moment they are struggling a bit with not enough rain and the soil around them is cracking. Must seriously improve that part of the garden. If they do well there, they will anywhere.
Hope you will sow your seed and looking forward to compare results, Silverleaf.
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Post by galina on Apr 26, 2017 9:11:01 GMT -5
Oh they survive any sort of neglect Robert, hope you have a better gardening year in 2017
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Post by galina on Apr 7, 2017 14:56:24 GMT -5
Your previous post is interesting, I am really curious to see how much diversity pops up in those TPOS. Not exactly the same, but growing Multiplier Onion Minogue (Perlzwiebel) from seed, I noticed just how different they are looking. Green, yellowish green and blueish green. They all made it through winter, but it was not a very cold winter here, but now that they are growing again, the differences are noticeable.
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Post by galina on Mar 27, 2017 17:21:20 GMT -5
My pea seedling plants are just about all planted now. With plastic bottle cloches on top to prevent voles decapitating them. I prefer tall peas which just grow out of the bottle tops. Garden looks like an assortment of bottles, but the first peas are pushing out of the tops now. Soon will grip onto their tall sticks. It is getting exciting again.
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Post by galina on Mar 27, 2017 17:04:52 GMT -5
Thanks for looking templetonI did get the gist from posts on here. Purple to green (Pur to pur a and pur b) just happens. It happens, all too frequently and that explains my difficulties with the Shiraz cross. And it explains why I had two different looking F1 plants, one with much greener pods, and the second only had fully purple pods at the start of the season, then they too 'switched' to much greener. All the agonising whether something had gone wrong with the cross to produce two different F1 plants, when actually a shift to a 'lesser form of purple' explains it all. Even if I can't get the paper, I've gained much insight I did not have before. Thank you all who commented.
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Post by galina on Mar 26, 2017 4:09:34 GMT -5
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