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Post by elkwc36 on Apr 5, 2009 17:00:58 GMT -5
Mike we are talking about different books. And I feel Martin is referring to the same one I am. It was written by Carolyn Male. I will be sending you an email explaining my views on this. Many here have read her statements about heirlooms and what it takes to be considered one and how she has made remarks about some claims. I have never read Amy's book and won't degrade it. I believe it is " The Heirloom Tomato". The one we were referring to is "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden" I believe. correct me if I'm wrong. I do have that book but not handy. I would make the same statements to her face if she was here. I'm not sure how much you know about her actions to some of us but as I was always told " you reap what you sow." Jay
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Post by paquebot on Apr 5, 2009 17:37:15 GMT -5
I shall repeat. Green Zebra is an heirloom tomato variety according to pages 126 and 127 of 100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden. As near as can be determined, there is only one book by that title and that book has only one author.
Martin
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Post by grunt on Apr 6, 2009 6:03:51 GMT -5
I've had trouble accepting the "definition" of heirloom in the past. It was decided sometime in the 70's or 80's that it would mean pre-1950 and hasn't "officially" been changed from that. Given the relative age of the varieties that covered at that time, there have been a goodly number of varieties that would qualify today, including most of Tom Wagner's breeding creations.
If open pollinated varieties are to remain designated simply open pollinated because they didn't have the good fortune to be introduced before 1950, perhaps we should change the designation heirloom to something a bit more accurate, like pre-Eisenhower, or pre-McCarthy.
If the original designation for heirloom varieties stays, it means there are many varieties that were around for less than 30 years when they received the designation, and even more varieties that have now been around for almost 60 years, that do not qualify to be called heirloom. I would think that it might be better to have a time period that a variety has to weather to become labeled heirloom, 25 or 30 years, or 40, what ever. Michel: Nothing wrong in your English usage, at least from my viewpoint. I think we all tend to forget that just because we don't have much use for certain individuals, doesn't mean that those individuals have no worth, or can contribute nothing of value. I think we tend to be overly critical of everything that comes out of the mouths (so to speak) of those we dislike, for what ever reason. I am here on this site and on TomatoLand as a result of some things that I observed, and an uncomfortable feeling whenever posting, on the site which will not be named. How ever, I still check back at that other site from time to time because there is still the possibility to glean valuable information from the writer of the original "Tomato book". I tend to sift it through a finer sieve, and research it a bit more than I might from members here, but I can still find value there. I am as guilty as anyone else here of initially judging the quality and worth of what is said based on who said it, and perhaps where. But I also continuously second guess myself and make myself re-assess what I have perceived to be the result, which usually lets me make an accurate judgment of the worth. I know that I am a beginner here, compared to a great many of you, and I know that there is a lot that I do not know about most of what is talked about in the different threads. But I pick out different things on them, and do a sort of blitz research, and try to get a handle on what I don't understand, or on things that I think I understand but don't seem to jibe with what I "know". I let it all settle in my mind for a while, then blitz it again, to see if I "got it right" when I blitzed it the first time. I tend to hold my own counsel on most things, and try to post only when I think I have reasonably good input. I get as riled up about things as the rest of you, but I have managed to slow down my response time enough to keep from making a fool of myself most of the time. And I am starting to babble on now, so I'll sign off. Cheers Dan
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Post by bunkie on Apr 6, 2009 9:42:22 GMT -5
great post dan and i totally concur! ;D ............In the mind of the general population, heirloom has come to equate Open Pollinated, giving it a sometimes undeserved old time twist. OP means nothing to most, while heirloom does bring up a positive feeling ( not sure of my choice of words in english ).... like dan said michel, nothing's wrong with your language. i agree with your thoughts on OP's and heirlooms and how they are accepted today, and you put them quite well. on idig, ggg posted these four various definitions of heirlooms, and i thought they really covered the many facets of heirlooms today. they cover the old, the new, and the 'to be'. what do you all think?
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Post by canadamike on Apr 6, 2009 9:49:17 GMT -5
There were 2 things in my message : I taught the book that was attacked did not deserve it, BUT I WAS WRONG on the book, sorry. I know many here have valuable complaints and grudgesI would myself have towards a certain person.
I just misread the tittle of the book and tought of another one, sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think I would have reacted the same way...
But the heirloom part of my message part of my message was more general. The french term is a bit more accurate and inclusive than heirlooms : variétés patrimoniales'' translated to heritage
»Webster dictionary online:
1 a: an estate inherited from one's father or ancestor b: anything derived from one's father or ancestors : heritage
It could be argued that ''age'' is not part of the definition, and that if filial lines can be established then it is HERITAGE, as there is automatic geneational ''transmition'' of genes.
It could be either an old heritage or not, or an heritage to be...
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Kelly
gardener
Posts: 117
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Post by Kelly on Apr 6, 2009 11:17:16 GMT -5
I must admit, I've read none of the books being discussed here (it's true!) so I can't speak to what I think of any of them individually. I do know that there are quite a few gardeners though that equate OP with heirloom/heritage. I'm not personally one of those people (since it seems so variable in the gardening world, I went with something simple that made sense to me - anything older than 50 years and is open pollinated = heirloom). But I did think that this was particularly interesting: OP means nothing to most, while heirloom does bring up a positive feeling ( not sure of my choice of words in english ). I would agree with you Mike! To me this begs the question: why doesn't OP mean much to some people? To me heirloom and OP are just different forms of the same thing - one happens to be older than the other. Doesn't mean that one is any less valuable.
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Post by ottawagardener on Apr 6, 2009 12:30:43 GMT -5
When the term open pollinated is understood, it seems to either mean 'carefree' or 'careless' depending on the person. Whereas hybrid has the connotations of 'designed,' 'improved,' 'monstorous,' 'manipulated,' 'disease resistant or larger blooms etc...' and so on.
Sometimes, the impression that OP gives depends on your impression of Hybrid.
Heritage/heirloom: precious, saved, valued, family, history, and so on. It's hard to graft that onto OP, and new heirloom sounds contradictory
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Post by bluelacedredhead on Apr 6, 2009 13:05:31 GMT -5
open pollinated is understood, it seems to either mean 'carefree' or 'careless' depending on the person. Whereas hybrid has the connotations of 'designed,' 'improved,' 'monstorous,' 'manipulated,' 'disease resistant or larger blooms etc...' and so on. Sometimes, the impression that OP gives depends on your impression of Hybrid. Heritage/heirloom: precious, saved, valued, family, history, and so on. It's hard to graft that onto OP, and new heirloom sounds contradictory Telsing, Very interesting concept, using 'careless' or 'carefree' to describe OP seeds? I've never heard OP used in that way? To Me, it means True. That the seed breeds true again and again. The fact that there aren't (as far as I know) many "new" introductions into the OP world, makes the majority of them IMO, Heirloom varieties. Hybrid, even though I doubt it seldom happens this way intentionally, should be the word described as Careless or Carefree. Why? Because to attempt to grow subsequent generations of a variety from a hybrid plant often has Carefree results with the 2nd generation reverting to one genetic side of the equation. And to throw a little personal Food for Thought into this discussion, I obtained some Hybrid seed for a particular tomato variety from someone on T-Ville. Why, when I've raised OP veggies for the most part over the past decade? Well, to Me, it falls under the category of a Precious, Family, History, Valued Variety from the 1970's when I first learned to garden. It's one from Central-Western NY and was a popular variety in this area. The varietal name is that of a family name, although we are not related to "The" farm family that it was named for. Still, it means enough to Me, that I would consider it a part of my 'heritage', and my husband insists that we grow it every year now.
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Post by ottawagardener on Apr 6, 2009 14:10:18 GMT -5
My alliteration tendancies were working overtime. By carefree I just mean that they 'work' or breed true by careless I mean that some people feel that they are not a precision tool like the hybrids are. I, by the way, am firmly in the OP camp. I save seeds and prefer to have some idea what I'll get the following year. Though I also like to encourage genetic diversity in my crops.
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Post by bunkie on Apr 6, 2009 19:07:40 GMT -5
me too telsing, on the OP and the occassional unexpected results!
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Post by canadamike on Apr 6, 2009 19:23:25 GMT -5
We have to understand one thing: we would love everybody to garden but it is not the case. Open pollinated is darn easy for me to put my mind around as a concept, but I am a gardener.
Since we are not in vast number enough to define popular uses and dictate them, we have to go with the flow.
But we can influence it. Heritage only refers to filiation, in this case of the genes, it does not have to mean it is old. And it is easy to grasp even by people unaware of the realities of gardening and pollination.
Heritage suggest what it means. Open pollinated is a term that has to be learned. I remember full well when I read my first Organic Gardening magazine, in the days it was good and in a small black and white format. That day changed my life and launched me into gardening, and I had found a way of doing it I related to in a broader philosophical sense.
I researched the meaning of Open Pollinated. I would never have had to research the word heritage.
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Post by ottawagardener on Apr 6, 2009 19:32:12 GMT -5
Michel: That's what I was getting at with the little preamble: 'when the term is understood.'
I think you're right on the money with Heritage, it means something to most people whereas OP does not.
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Post by stratcat on Apr 6, 2009 23:48:31 GMT -5
I don't know - they didn't identify any of the fruit except for the Solanum lycopersicum. Does anyone else have any identification ideas? Patty Long John.
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Post by grunt on Apr 7, 2009 3:00:19 GMT -5
So by these definitions, when I finish stabilizing the accidental crosses that have happened in my garden, I will be introducing 15 or 20 new "heirlooms". To quote several people, "Kewl".
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Post by flowerpower on Apr 7, 2009 6:18:09 GMT -5
Patty, thanks for the ID. I am putting the Long John on my wish list. I just love that long neck. So I guess Green Zebra is a "created" heirloom? That just doesn't sound right to me. It took me a while to understand that OP and Heirloom are really not the same term.
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