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Post by ottawagardener on Apr 7, 2009 7:47:40 GMT -5
Should we call them Newlooms? How about Freelooms... I've run out of ideas...
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Kelly
gardener
Posts: 117
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Post by Kelly on Apr 7, 2009 11:31:20 GMT -5
Hahaha, Newlooms, I love it!
It's a good point you all bring up - heirloom or heritage one does immediately at least get the idea behind what the plant is. Open pollinated does have to be learnt.
Perhaps I'm too anal retentive, but I think using the correct terms however is important. Each word has a different meaning in language, even if it's only a subtle one, but the distinction exists for a reason. An open pollinated tomato IS different than an heirloom/heritage - albeit in my books no less important.
To me it's like calling, say, a bull mastiff a shih tzu. They're both dogs, they're both the same species, but they're just not the same thing.
PS - Dan, I'd LOVE to hear about the varieties your stabilizing!
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Post by canadamike on Apr 7, 2009 12:47:50 GMT -5
I think heirloom should stay around, but heritage should be the generic term for OP. One veggie can be both....
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Kelly
gardener
Posts: 117
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Post by Kelly on Apr 8, 2009 11:43:49 GMT -5
It's funny, because heirloom and heritage, at least in terms of veggies, have always been synonyms to me. Am I incorrect in saying that what us over here in North America call heirloom plants, people in the UK call heritage? I was always under that impression .
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Post by elkwc36 on Apr 8, 2009 19:36:17 GMT -5
I shared a few of my thoughts and experiences with Michael. And after a few scoldings I now mainly just call them all op's and don't use the term heirloom too often. There is several definitions for a heirloom and then some change the term to meet their needs on a given day. So to avoid controversy I have elected to just state op most of the time. That is the most important fact to me. I know I can save it and if it is good and produces well here I really don't care if it is 10 or 100 years old. And I'm not sure what makes one person think they have the right to decide how the term should be used. Just my opinion. Jay
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Post by canadamike on Apr 8, 2009 20:02:55 GMT -5
One person does not decide, Jay, but those very fluid ''decisions'' seem to happen in society without anybody really knowing how I am with you on the OP moniker. It makes sense to me too, and for most of us. But we are serious gardeners. At the grocery store, on market stands, in the cities, OP means nothing for most. Heritage or heirloom do. Outside our specialized circle, if I want to use a word that conveys the sense of what I am doing, how I garden, I really don't feel I am sitting on a 4 legged chair with ''open pollinated'' And as much as I would like one of our technical terms become usual linguo, I have the feeling it will stay in the realm of hope... Jay, you say: '' And I'm not sure what makes one person think they have the right to decide how the term should be used. '' We are just exchanging here, showing preferences, not deciding for others, which we can't, that is why we are looking at a more exact term. The only power we would ever have would be to use a word and suggest its use...
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Post by pugs on Apr 8, 2009 22:22:55 GMT -5
I usually say heirlooms and other open pollinated varieties. This gives me an opening to educate people, since they usually ask what do you mean by that? Then I have to explain that heirlooms are usually older varieties, or a subset of, open pollinated varieties.
Pugs
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Post by stratcat on Apr 8, 2009 23:23:47 GMT -5
For a couple years I've been referring to my tomatoes as Old-Fashioned, especially when I'm giving plants away. As in we can save seeds to start our own plants next year and get the same thing.
Working on stabilizing some bee-cross varieties and like Old-Fashioned for the finished product, as well. Old-Time works for me, too.
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Post by elkwc36 on Apr 9, 2009 6:24:20 GMT -5
Mike I agree with what you said. My statement wasn't aimed at you or anyone on this board but the person I shared with you who has had issues with my terms and who I referred to in my first post. I also agree it would be good to have a term to use and when giving plants to coworkers ect I do use heirloom/op. But on the forums I have about quit using the heirloom word like I mentioned. On this forum and TL no problem. Everyone is reasonable and want to learn. On others where there is personal agendas it is different. My idea is if it has been saved and preserved for a considerable time it would be an heirloom. But some say must of been before the 1940's when hybrids really started being marketed and then like mentioned here some have several categories. So can be confusing to a new comer or even someone you are trying to convert. Just my opinion. Jay
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Post by kctomato on Apr 9, 2009 13:32:25 GMT -5
How's about just "it's a good tomato named _______"
It's kind of like - are you more worried about someone's social standing or how they are as an individual?
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Post by kctomato on Apr 9, 2009 14:45:33 GMT -5
Here's the way I look at it. Of all tomatoes there are 3 basic groups genetically that have to do with what seed one has (and how to handle it); hybrids, segregating lines and open pollinated. Heirlooms are a subset of open pollinated tomatoes. The way those terms are communicated in genetics has to do with how the genes in a given population are. Isogenic translates from the Latin roots to "like-genes". Or all the genes of a population are "like" pairings. Even though hybrids are heterozygous all the gene pairs of a hybrid population that are heterozygous are all consistently heterozygous. The exception is when populations are segregating. Then there are combos of gene pairs in that population with the F2 generation being the most "un-like" which is termed non-isogenic. As generations go on, selection occurs and the population become somewhat more uniform, more of the genes become a like or nearly isogenic. Once all the pairs become a like and the population is uniform it is once again an isogenic line though now they are homozygous.
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