|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 23, 2011 0:23:52 GMT -5
This spring I planted some of my Astronomy Domine sweet corn in an "ear-to-row" configuration. I planted seeds from the same cob together into the same row. I call each row a sibling group since they all share the same mother. I am very impressed with the results of the experiment. It makes it very easy to tell which families are better suited to my garden (this year).
This week I am evaluating the corn patch and typing ribbons around those plants that I want to save as the seed crop for next year. Some sibling groups are doing exceptionally well in my garden. Others did so bad that they didn't even germinate. The sibling groups tend to share traits in common: Some groups are exceptional, some are poor, and many are average. They tend to share color schemes, and heights, etc... There is an occasional exceptional plant in a poor group, but overall the siblings tend to resemble each other.
Last fall I saved seeds from some individual cobs into seed packets containing the seeds from only one cob. This spring I planted 7 seeds from each packet at a spacing of one foot, and then skipped 3 feet and started with the next packet in long rows. I worked serially with my tube seeder planting one packet after another until the field was planted. I didn't keep records of what got planted where. I also planted packet-to-row samples of seeds I received from seed companies and collaborators from around the Internet. Some of those have turned out very interesting due to growth habits, or DTM, or etc...
This planting method sure makes it easy to improve my corn crop.
I also planted a crossing block with bulk seed. I am marking exceptional plants from that patch to be planted ear-to-row next spring along with the current ear-to-row selectees.
|
|
|
Post by DarJones on Aug 23, 2011 12:19:14 GMT -5
Joseph, I suggest you read Jugenheimer's analysis of selection methods. There are several significantly better methods of selection that takes less overall effort for a given amount of genetic gain.
Hybrid Maize Breeding and Seed Production - Jugenheimer
DarJones
|
|
|
Post by jonnyyuma on Aug 25, 2011 15:31:12 GMT -5
Hello, Darrell is right on point. There are many ways to increase gain that are better than Ear-to Row. If the female is the same and the male parent is the population at large, half-sib family, your genetic gain will be less per cycle because you are still dealing with the negative alleles coming from the population. If you control both parents, a full-sib family, you can double your gain. Now I think Alan's idea with his breeding efforts is you use the population at large to maintain environmental stability. It is wise to do quick bulk/family selection for what works well for you....basically selecting with in the "line" for high performing half-sib familes. You can recombine those as a RCB or diallele to make sure that every female gets an equal chance to be pollinated by the population. Do this for a couple of cycles and you will have a new "Astro Domine" that is "adapted" to your region. It will be slow, but you will recover the alleles from the population of Astro Domine that you want. If you want to maximize your genetic gain, it is a different story. Jonny
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 25, 2011 18:00:27 GMT -5
My problem with the fastest methods, is that they require record keeping and isolation (or bagging and hand pollination) that I don't have the time or the inclination to engage in. Ear-to-row is simple, and requires no record keeping other than what I write on the outside of the seed envelope.
I could imagine myself doing a half-diallele study, in which I used Astronomy Domine as a mother, and trialed different pollen donors, but that's about as far as I'd go... Some day I might also consider doing half-diallele studies to identify F1 hybrids that produce strikingly beautiful cobs at the fresh eating stage. But I'll be lazy and presume that a half-diallele study would mostly produce the same results as a full-diallele study.
One thing I did this summer that may be better long-term than mass selection or ear-to-row, is that I planted patches of like seed together in semi-isolated patches. That way they will tend to be pollinated by their close relatives. I do standard mass selection within the semi-isolated patches. Some of the patches this spring were merely similar-types, some were family-lines, and some were sibling groups.
|
|
|
Post by DarJones on Aug 25, 2011 18:10:52 GMT -5
With corn, the closer the relatives are, the higher the inbreeding and the more inbreeding depression that you get. In other words, you get some genetic gain meaning the traits are going the right direction, but production goes down. There is a balance - not easily achieved - in an open pollinated corn where the level of genetic gain is steady while inbreeding is kept to a minimum. It took some people a lot smarter than me to figure out some of the methods that have been used over the years. I agree that most of them are labor intensive. But the rest are worth reading about.
DarJones
|
|
|
Post by Alan on Aug 26, 2011 0:11:10 GMT -5
To me, it's all about what you hope to achieve and why the easiest methods (ear to row and mass selection) tend to win out is coupled closely with the phillosophy of farming/breeding that Joseph and I seem to share closely. For 10,000 years this worked.....very well. No reason to reinvent the wheel in that:
A. We will never recoup our time effort and money B. While the rest of the world gets to share in what we have we do this for us. and a possible C. (in my case, can't speak for Joseph) there is a deeply spirtual contingent that pairs itself equally with the scientific contingent which leads us down the paths we choose.
All these breeding roads lead to Mesoamerica, it's just how long and tedious it is in getting there, were really just recreating the landraces of that region in a geographically removed area for the very same reasons they did.
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 26, 2011 1:44:39 GMT -5
C. (in my case, can't speak for Joseph) there is a deeply spirtual contingent that pairs itself equally with the scientific contingent which leads us down the paths we choose. All these breeding roads lead to Mesoamerica, Me too... Speaking of mesoamerica, I received some corn seed a few years ago from Oaxaca. (I call it pyramid corn for lack of a better name.) It grew well enough to set seed in my garden during our Indian summer after the rest of the corn had been frozen solid, but I didn't have any pollen to incorporate it into a crossing project. So this spring months before it is customary to plant corn I planted tens of thousands of corn seeds including some of the Oaxacan corn... Today I was startled to find that one plant from the Oaxacan race had survived the tremendous cold.... The identification is obvious due to it's growth habit, which I call a corn-vine... It is currently tasseling. Hmmm... Wonder where I could put it's pollen and/or what I have available to pollinate it with? Hope I can get it crossed with something else....
|
|
|
Post by Alan on Aug 26, 2011 9:13:53 GMT -5
This is not to say those other methods don't work and lead to real gains though I should add. They certianly do! For example, if my impetutus was work for a seed company for a pay check, I'd likely be persuing some of those methods. To me, it's all about what you hope to achieve and why the easiest methods (ear to row and mass selection) tend to win out is coupled closely with the phillosophy of farming/breeding that Joseph and I seem to share closely. For 10,000 years this worked.....very well. No reason to reinvent the wheel in that: A. We will never recoup our time effort and money B. While the rest of the world gets to share in what we have we do this for us. and a possible C. (in my case, can't speak for Joseph) there is a deeply spirtual contingent that pairs itself equally with the scientific contingent which leads us down the paths we choose. All these breeding roads lead to Mesoamerica, it's just how long and tedious it is in getting there, were really just recreating the landraces of that region in a geographically removed area for the very same reasons they did.
|
|
|
Post by Alan on Aug 26, 2011 9:18:28 GMT -5
What is the yield like on the "pyramid" corn and the phenotype? Do you have pictures of it? I can't imagine growing a field like that (with the corn laying horizontally accross the ground), it'd drive me crazy trying to navigate it, plus the raccons, squirrels, deer, and ferrel pigs would wipe me out. C. (in my case, can't speak for Joseph) there is a deeply spirtual contingent that pairs itself equally with the scientific contingent which leads us down the paths we choose. All these breeding roads lead to Mesoamerica, Me too... Speaking of mesoamerica, I received some corn seed a few years ago from Oaxaca. (I call it pyramid corn for lack of a better name.) It grew well enough to set seed in my garden during our Indian summer after the rest of the corn had been frozen solid, but I didn't have any pollen to incorporate it into a crossing project. So this spring months before it is customary to plant corn I planted tens of thousands of corn seeds including some of the Oaxacan corn... Today I was startled to find that one plant from the Oaxacan race had survived the tremendous cold.... The identification is obvious due to it's growth habit, which I call a corn-vine... It is currently tasseling. Hmmm... Wonder where I could put it's pollen and/or what I have available to pollinate it with? Hope I can get it crossed with something else....
|
|
|
Post by blueadzuki on Aug 26, 2011 10:28:09 GMT -5
What is the yield like on the "pyramid" corn and the phenotype? Do you have pictures of it? I can't imagine growing a field like that (with the corn laying horizontally accross the ground), it'd drive me crazy trying to navigate it, plus the raccons, squirrels, deer, and ferrel pigs would wipe me out. That "flat to the ground" trait is in fact, fairly well documented; I saw some corn like that in the test garden back in colledge. They said it happened a few times in the early days of trying to make modern hybrid corn. The root couase is that that the plants ability to respond to auxin gets f**ked up, so it loses it's ability to grow against gravity. In the case of Jo's plant I'd say it's more along the line of severely delayed response, as the plant is demonstrating normal phototropic response around the tassel area (if it was completely insensitive, like the stuff I was shown was, the tassel would be as flat to the ground as the plant is.)
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 26, 2011 11:11:54 GMT -5
I had an odd corn plant this year that i suspect was from painted mountain, but it did not grow flat, it grew "sideways" so to speak. Instead it growing like telescoping straws the sides kept splitting when it was young, and it kept bending over and over, and never got very tall. When it was young the tassel part was laying flat on the ground. But as it reached maturity time to tassel it straightened that part up.
I suspect maybe there are maybe infant genes and adult genes like in humans. Humans have three copies of hemoglobin genes, one for in the fetus, one for childhood, and one for adulthood (which some people have sickle cell in). Perhaps these flat corn have a non functioning copy of the seedling copy, but the adult copy functions normally.
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 26, 2011 13:25:43 GMT -5
What is the yield like on the "pyramid" corn and the phenotype? Do you have pictures of it? I can't imagine growing a field like that (with the corn laying horizontally accross the ground), it'd drive me crazy I was also growing it in a backyard belonging to a collaborator. It drove him crazy, he was installing trellises, and strings, and braces to keep it upright. I just let it sprawl in my field, but it seriously inhibited my ability to weed. Haven't been able to find the pictures. The phenotype is: - Very long stalks (10').
- Severe lodging at about 5' tall.
- Thick hairy stalks.
- Cob approximately the size and shape of a ponderosa pine cone.
- Kernels elongated cylinders with a point like some popcorns.
- Kernel color black or dark brown/red
- Interior of dry kernel very light and airy: easily chewed or crushed.
- It had issues with DTM or day-length in my garden.
Having come directly from Oaxaca it is not well adapted to my garden so yield was about a pint of seed from a 200 square foot bed. Around 10% of the plants managed to produce seeds. That a plant from the tropics survived my frost-hardiness and cold-tolerance test took me totally by surprise.
|
|
|
Post by blueadzuki on Aug 26, 2011 14:33:47 GMT -5
What is the yield like on the "pyramid" corn and the phenotype? Do you have pictures of it? I can't imagine growing a field like that (with the corn laying horizontally accross the ground), it'd drive me crazy I was also growing it in a backyard belonging to a collaborator. It drove him crazy, he was installing trellises, and strings, and braces to keep it upright. I just let it sprawl in my field, but it seriously inhibited my ability to weed. Haven't been able to find the pictures. The phenotype is: - Very long stalks (10').
- Severe lodging at about 5' tall.
- Thick hairy stalks.
- Cob approximately the size and shape of a ponderosa pine cone.
- Kernels elongated cylinders with a point like some popcorns.
- Kernel color black or dark brown/red
- Interior of dry kernel very light and airy: easily chewed or crushed.
- It had issues with DTM or day-length in my garden.
Having come directly from Oaxaca it is not well adapted to my garden so yield was about a pint of seed from a 200 square foot bed. Around 10% of the plants managed to produce seeds. That a plant from the tropics survived my frost-hardiness and cold-tolerance test took me totally by surprise. Looks sort of like this? www.flickr.com/photos/ciskatobing/51103632/ Sounds like a form of Cancha/Maiz Chulpe de Monanas (the same stuff as the peruvian corn I tried to grow). Come to think of it, a lot of mine was pretty sprawly but I just put that down to bad spacing.
|
|
|
Post by canadamike on Aug 26, 2011 14:35:53 GMT -5
I am seeing a lot of low lying corns in many fields of OP corn in Quebec this year. Simply not planted deep enough or, in some case,with too much nitrogen in the ground. They are healthy and heavy plants, so they simply fall if the wind is too strong. Then they regrow up as much as they can.
It might be just that here...
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 26, 2011 15:34:54 GMT -5
Based on a year old memory: Most like the prominent cob in the upper right, except black. And definitely not like the dents that are also shown in the photo.
|
|