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Post by oxbowfarm on Sept 2, 2011 8:49:10 GMT -5
I was just looking at the Seed Savers Exchange Forum and got a little POed at some misinformation (IMO) getting bandied about there.
I just get frustrated every time I see the statement "you can't save seed from a Hybrid" "Its a hybrid so the seeds won't grow."
Obviously I admire the work that has been done creating the SSE but I feel that there definitely is this purity snobbery that results in fewer people saving seeds and protecting germplasm than they might otherwise because the bar is set too high in their minds.
Just because the old junky mass produced hybrid seed somebody buys at Walmart isn't an heirloom or interesting or particularly great doesn't mean you couldn't save seed from it and grow more food for yourselves and your neighbors in a pinch. But folks won't know this if all the info they get is the snobby, "Heirlooms are the best and hybrids are evil" junk.
I like to save seed, I like to mess around with breeding my own varieties and finding unusual stuff to differentiate our stand from the competition, but food is food and seeds are seeds and the difference between a Brandywine and Celebrity F1 isn't all that much, and I bet if you planted seed from home saved Celebrity F2 so to speak you'd get a lot more tomatoes than from the Brandywine. Even if they weren't all the same size or shape or flavor etc.
Not trying to knock SSE to much, I'm a member and really like the access to all that germplasm. Just irked by the puritanical dogma that seems to come with it somewhat.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 2, 2011 9:26:34 GMT -5
I agree! I also hate how most major seed companies, forums, etc... all keep spreading that "wisdom" around. sure if you've got an interesting trait that is rare, then maybe you would like to preserve it in the form of an heirloom, and a hybrid would create big problems with stability, but otherwise hybrid seeds are not evil. Also commercial hybrid seed often is different than natural hybrids that occur in your own garden. Hybrids created commercially may or may not survive well in various gardens around the country in different environments, but hybrids that occur in your own back yard probably will grow just fine.
They always make it sound like hybrid seed wont even grow at all, and then they continue to make it seem like if you did grow them that they will be some sort of monster that you wont recognize and you will be utterly horrified at whatever does grow.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 2, 2011 12:21:22 GMT -5
This week I have been thinking about writing an article recommending saving the seeds from hybrids. Seems like it would be especially useful for inbreeders like tomatoes: Saves me the work of making my own hybrids.
I'm constantly dehybridizing plants. Sweet corn always produces sweet corn. Tomatoes always produce tomatoes.
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Post by 12540dumont on Sept 2, 2011 12:39:40 GMT -5
Joseph, I'll buy that book! Sign me up. In the early days before we "knew that if you grew a hybrid you would go straight to the devil", Leo and I saved seeds from Sweet 100 cherry tomatoes. Guess what? They weren't even hybrids. You can buy a Sweet 100, relabeled Peacevine tomato from Alan K. Holly
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Post by ottawagardener on Sept 2, 2011 14:21:24 GMT -5
I have been growing out seed from hybrids, store brought mystery fruit and anything that suits my fancy really with good results almost always. Did have one tomato that had a tendency to crack and rot easily with a lot of streaking scars on its fruit but other than that, good results. Even grocery store bought squash grown out generally produced fruit much like the parent. Don't know if it was a hybrid or not but I liked the result.
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Post by blueadzuki on Sept 2, 2011 19:10:47 GMT -5
I've said this before, but my personal bonnet bee (preferably a metallic green sweat bee). is the concept that Heirloom=Better 100% of the time, that is, that any heirloom is always better than a hybrid, if not perfect. Some heirlooms are obscure and little known for a good reason, they are (from a utility point of view) junk. I have a similar problem with people who say that "maximum diversity" is always the goal to strive for. More diversity is in most cases desireable, but maximum means that you have to go out of your way to keep poor performers in the mix. Actually it means you can't eat ANY of your produce, since you never know when a seed migh have had a spontaneous mutation. Let's face it, if we were really comitted to maximum diversity, we probably would not keep discrete strains of vegetables at all. We'd all simply send all of our seed to a central location, where it would all be poured in a big cauldron, strirred up and re-distributed to us as completely random measures.
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Post by Alan on Sept 2, 2011 19:36:41 GMT -5
This week I have been thinking about writing an article recommending saving the seeds from hybrids. Seems like it would be especially useful for inbreeders like tomatoes: Saves me the work of making my own hybrids. I'm constantly dehybridizing plants. Sweet corn always produces sweet corn. Tomatoes always produce tomatoes. Joseph, I wrote a ton of articles like that way back in the day at homegrowngoodness.blogspot.com, but perhaps it's time for a refresher course. I've been working on one about genepools and landraces this week. Perhaps a united front from all us homegrowers would do the public good!
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Post by castanea on Sept 2, 2011 19:58:57 GMT -5
I just read something the other day about how you can't save seeds from hybrid bell peppers because you can't predict what you'll get if you plant them. YES YOU CAN! You will get peppers. And I'm not even psychic.
I am so tired of people telling me not to plant hybrid veggie seeds or not to plant seeds from fruit trees. How the hell do these people think we got the hybrid veggies and different fruit tree varieties in the first place?
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Post by castanea on Sept 2, 2011 19:59:38 GMT -5
This week I have been thinking about writing an article recommending saving the seeds from hybrids. Seems like it would be especially useful for inbreeders like tomatoes: Saves me the work of making my own hybrids. I'm constantly dehybridizing plants. Sweet corn always produces sweet corn. Tomatoes always produce tomatoes. Write it! Then stand back and watch some people's heads explode.
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Post by mickey on Sept 2, 2011 20:52:59 GMT -5
Sounds like they can't tell a horse from a mule to me. ;D
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Post by steev on Sept 2, 2011 21:23:01 GMT -5
It's all about control. The farmer who's bet the farm on this year's wall-to-wall crop of dingleberries has to know that he can reap exactly what he's sown. Ditto the agribusinessman who does his "farming" at a desk. Neither of these guys can afford a crop of non-uniform, off-color dingleberries. Those of us who have the slack to indulge our curiosity just don't fit that pinch-assed mode of behavior. If that makes some people's heads explode, it'll blow their butts off!
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Post by steev on Sept 2, 2011 21:27:50 GMT -5
Besides, an heirloom is just a hybrid that's had its genetic diversity squeezed out.
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Post by 12540dumont on Sept 2, 2011 22:51:37 GMT -5
Gee, Leo and I made a hybrid...it's called a son.
Hybrids have their place. I'd still be planting Early Girl's if Monsanto didn't own them. I'm not talking GMO. Some hybrids are great. No offense to any of my corn friends, but I have yet to find an OP/Heirloom corn that I can leave in the field for a week and the farm fridge for a week and it's still sweet and not starchy.
I can't figure out what do do with corn that's not ready on Wednesday (CSA day) but is ready on Friday....and then what do I do with it till the next Wednesday? I keep trying and hoping.
I have never been able to grow a Brandywine, but have grown a great row of Celebrity's. I have also had some great zuckens....and the chicken coop is full of hybrid tomatoes....that the chicken's planted.
What a world, what a world.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Sept 3, 2011 0:03:48 GMT -5
No offense to any of my corn friends, but I have yet to find an OP/Heirloom corn that I can leave in the field for a week and the farm fridge for a week and it's still sweet and not starchy. I ate an open pollinated cob of corn today. It had been left in the field so long that the husk had turned yellow and dry. It was picked 36 hours previously and left in the back of the truck because I was going to take it to the food pantry after market but got distracted... It was sweet and had a delicious flavor, though the texture was a bit chewy (more from dehydration than from starchiness). It was a hybrid between Astronomy Domine and sugary enhanced sweet corn. It was a much better cob of corn than I can typically get from the grocery store. So give us a couple of years, and we'll get that "OP sweet and not starchy" thing taken care of.
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Post by lavandulagirl on Sept 3, 2011 0:20:04 GMT -5
YES YOU CAN! You will get peppers. And I'm not even psychic. This was the statement that made my night!
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