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Post by jonnyyuma on Nov 11, 2011 11:35:53 GMT -5
Hello, This may be the death of me here, but I have been curious about this for some time. I think there are many people here who can comment and provide some very intelligent feedback, so I am going to pose the question to you all, as opposed to some of the other boards I used/or have been involved with. Just for transperancy, I have worked for Seminis for over 10 years.
I will use Seminis as my example, but Rogers and Nunhems (among others would fit into the same scenario).
In the thread "Misinformation from Seed Saving Puritans" a poster had mentioned that they no longer grow Seminis tomatos because they were purchased by Monsanto. A few other comments were made in that same line.
Now my question (finally). Roundup aside, Is it the business practices of Monsanto that would make you stop growing Seminis tomatos/vegetables? I ask this because Seminis has done everything that Monsanto has done. Seminis had GMO squash on the market prior to Monsanto releasing their first GM soybean. Seminis uses marker breeding prior to Monsanto purchasing Seminis. Seminis has been just as destructive to polyculture as Monsanto, granted the scale is different. Etc. (you can substitute any large seed company into this, I am just more familar with Seminis).
I may not have framed the question correctly, but I look forward to your responses.
Thanks Jonny
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Post by grunt on Nov 11, 2011 14:09:26 GMT -5
If by business practices, you mean the refusal to do honest open safety tests of the GMO's they create, and being the biggest bullies on the block, subverting anything that may slow their monopoly on seed production, reckless disregard of anyone's rights that they decide to go after, refusal to hear anything that might slow sales, lying to almost everyone they come in contact with in the business field, then I guess my answer would have to be yes.
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Post by PapaVic on Nov 11, 2011 14:56:07 GMT -5
Jonny, I have a problem with Monsanto for two reasons: First and foremost, their bullying and legal pursuit of persons who save seeds from their own crops grown adjacent to fields where their neighbors happen to grow Monsanto patent varieties (that in my opinion is excessive use of political and economic superiority), and secondly, their responsibility for releasing GE pollen into the environment to adversely affect wild species (beets for example) or domestic crops (corn for example) where other folks may not want to eat grain contaminated with bT, etc.
However, I do appreciate advances made by breeders and scientists who work for Monsanto subsidiaries, particularly as regards disease resistant varieties, increased production, and improved fertilizers, etc. And I find it hard to avoid purchasing products developed or sold by Monsanto subsidiaries.
The same objections I have regarding Monsanto, I would have regarding any other company engaged in the same products and practices.
By the way, aren't you now or haven't you in the past been associated with or worked for Seminis or some other large corporate breeder of melons and squash? It's really nothing to me if your are, but I just thought if you are, a disclaimer may be appropriate since the same questions you now ask have been discussed in great detail at garden boards you have visited over the years.
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Post by 12540dumont on Nov 11, 2011 15:07:45 GMT -5
Jonny, As she steps onto the soap box. I am the one who said I would not buy anything from Monsanto. The only vote that really counts is where I spend my money. To the extent possible that I can find out all the companies (sub companies, etc.) that Monsanto owns I will not give them one thin dime. Seminis although no angels, were not in the same league with Monsanto, or Dow for that matter. This is a short u tube video that everyone should see called Monsanto Extinction. www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ5OxdIq5DY&feature=player_embedded#! I think Monsanto is one of the most dangerous corporations in the world. I think it has a long history of oppressing the farmers and oppressing developing nations and their farmers. I think it has put profits before the people time and time again to such a degree that it really poses a threat to the sustainability of the human race. That’s about as bluntly as I can state it. There are smaller companies toying with genetics in the same way, but no one has dominance over the industry like Monsanto. It virtually holds a monopolistic control over seeds. Seminis was the largest seed company in the world before it was bought by Monsanto. Below is a list of safe seed/vs every other company that still sells anything owned by Monsanto. www.garden-of-eatin.com/how-to-avoid-monsanto/I began to save my own seeds again just so I would NEVER have to buy anything that was touched by Monsanto. Okay, so I'm getting off my soap box now.
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Post by jonnyyuma on Nov 11, 2011 18:37:00 GMT -5
Hello again, I think Grunt and Papavic have helped me to re-frame the question. It seems to be more about the scale of the infraction and the perpetrator rather than the infraction(s) in general.
For example:
It would seem pre-Monsanto that Seminis were "no angels", but that was ok up to the acquisition of Seminis by Monsanto?
Seminis is still the largest vegetable seed company. Again scale seems to be the differentiation and not the act.
Seminis did this with the release of virus resistant squash that used a coat protein gene insertion.
Seminis is not free of this and has pursued companies and individuals for pvp infringement.
Yes, I have been with Seminis for over 10 years. This was in my original post; never as a breeder. Currently I make selections of what will become newly introduced in many crop families.
Papavic, I may have missed any discussions about this at prior boards. I don't frequent or post to as many as I one had. I searched this forum for Syngenta and Rogers and only got one result. I searched for Monsanto and got many results.
Grunts post is similar to the above, but I will comment that Seminis has been accused of almost everything listed.
So I guess my new question: Is it the practice or the scale/perportrator?
Thanks so much, This has been awesome so far, Jonny
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 11, 2011 19:38:26 GMT -5
Seminis was never in the economic position of potentially being able to vertically integrate the entire food system. Monsanto IS in such a position if one allows for collusion with Cargill and ADM.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 11, 2011 21:33:38 GMT -5
Jonny,
I think it's the business practices that people are opposed to when it comes to monsanto. But one thing that Monsanto has now that Seminis probably never had is a large reputation and large publicity. So much publicity (probably mostly due to marketing Roundup for so many years) that monsanto is now a household name (again probably due mostly to Roundup marketing). I'll be honest, I've never heard of Seminis until now.
But i'm just guessing.
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Post by olddog on Nov 11, 2011 23:52:20 GMT -5
I actually did not realize so few companies had so much control over our food supply, not to mention the awesome diversity of our crop varieties, and wild crop relatives, some of which will, and already have been contaminated by genetically modified crops sold by Monsanto. The real evil here, is that these companies, large or small, Monsanto included, have not done any legitimate long-term studies on the health risks of genetically modified crops. One study I looked at said that there was a possibility, as the data was going in that direction, of liver damage, yikes, but the study was terminated, I wonder why? Too much power in the hands of the corporations, not enough government regulation, and greed. The problem is that it is very difficult to eat anything today without eating genetically modified foods, as nothing is labelled. I just found a listing on this website, The Union of Concerned Scientists, of all the GM crops introduced into the USA, and then I try to eat nothing that contains those crops, but it is really hard to do. Monsanto, Seminis, and others = corporations =evil, to put it bluntly. If it does prove to be harmful, how do you put it back into the bottle?
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Post by jonnyyuma on Nov 12, 2011 21:08:36 GMT -5
I appreciate the feedback. I think prior to China getting so much of the roundup business away from Monsanto, Monsanto may have been in a good enough position with cash that they could have done what was proposed by Oxbowfarm. However, I don't think they are in a strong enough financial position to make acquisitions like that. It seems sort of a "what if" question. I think if we are thinking "what if", there are many companies that could fully integrate the food chain other than the Monsanto pre roundup patent expiration.
Keen101, that is part of my question. It would seem noteriety plays a large part of the dislike of Monsanto. I think you could replace Monsanto with Syngenta, Dow, Bayer and the story would remain the same, but they aren't as recognizable.
Olddog, you raise a valid point. I do think you have over generalized that "coporations=evil to put it bluntly"
Thanks guys, Jonny
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Post by grunt on Nov 12, 2011 22:02:20 GMT -5
jonny: it is not so much that corporations are evil per se = it's more that the only conscience a corporation has is the bottom line, and the fact that they, almost without exception, take the shortest and most direct route to keeping the stock holders happy, and line the execs pockets with bonuses. I believe that it is possible to create GMO's that are good and beneficial, but I don't think we are going to see any of them vetted properly before they are turned loose on the world, and that is the larger crime as I see it.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 12, 2011 22:04:34 GMT -5
Now my question (finally). Roundup aside, Is it the business practices of Monsanto that would make you stop growing Seminis tomatos/vegetables? I ask this because Seminis has done everything that Monsanto has done. Seminis had GMO squash on the market prior to Monsanto releasing their first GM soybean. Seminis uses marker breeding prior to Monsanto purchasing Seminis. Seminis has been just as destructive to polyculture as Monsanto, granted the scale is different. Etc. (you can substitute any large seed company into this, I am just more familar with Seminis). Jonnyyuma: We need moles inside every large company!!!! Don't feel bad at all about your occupation. I've sent my seeds to people working similar jobs in other companies. I don't have any interest in knowing whether or not I am growing Seminis or Monsanto vegetables. I am certainly not going to spend the labor necessary to research each vegetable I grow to see who grew the seed, and to follow the web of ownership transfers back to the ultimate grower.... With that being said, I distrust all commercial seed companies and most mom-and-pop seed companies. I am doing everything I can to wean myself away from growing any seed that wasn't produced on my farm or on the farm of a neighbor, regardless of who produced the seed. I am especially uneasy with any company that produces seed by use of cytoplasmic male sterility, garden.lofthouse.com/cytoplasmic-male-sterility.phtml. The small seed companies are not exempt from my disgust in this area, because they often simply repackage seeds from the major offenders. One of my primary selection criteria for a seed supplier is that I will not buy seeds from any company which offers any crop that can only be produced economically by use of CMS... So any seed company that offers, for example, F1 hybrid carrots will never receive a penny of my money. I could very well be buying Seminis seeds, but I'll never know if they are advertized as open pollinated, and sold by someone that only offers open pollinated seeds, or hybrid seeds that are not commonly grown by use of CMS. Also, in general, the term hybrid is a cuss word to me because it implies that The Corporation is oppressing the small person and beguiling them to buy fresh seeds every year... The gains in performance that are supposedly associated with hybrids just don't manifest in my garden. But most importantly, my garden is unique. Commercial seeds tend to grow poorly for me with my hot, arid, sun-drenched days, and cold radiant-cooled, dew-free nights, and short growing season. Who else other than my close neighbors are growing in Lake Bonneville Pleistocene sediments? After I saw how amazing it is to grow locally adapted landraces, I would never go back to growing commercially available seeds.
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Post by olddog on Nov 14, 2011 21:10:07 GMT -5
Jonny, Let me clarify, I probably did not word that in the best way.
The people themselves, who work for the corporations, are not evil. They are just doing their job, like all of us are.
I just meant the corporation, their mandates, by laws, or whatever you call it, to put profit first, and people last, is evil.
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Post by Alan on Nov 17, 2011 13:38:00 GMT -5
On my behalf it doesn't matter the scale of the infraction, only that there is an infraction. I also don't believe that being a worker bee for the hive mind during the day is an "evil" thing, everyone needs to make a buck or two and if they can get those from the hive mind and use them to breed new varieties for the public domain, well then that my friend is the biggest act of revolutionary subversion one can persue and I commend you for it!
In all honesty though, I think in the wider garden culture most people use the name "Monsanto" as a synonym type word for the wider agri-corp world without much thought given to the corporate identity individual to each of the perpetuators.
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Post by paquebot on Nov 17, 2011 23:37:24 GMT -5
Just had a long chat with all of the seeds which are being readied for next year . Not a one of them cared about their ancestry. None admitted to being a Democrat or Republican or affiliation with any form of politics. Had to have some Russians translate what the Mongolians said and then in turn to German and French and finally to English. They are all getting along just fine despite the differences between their countries. Absolute majority say that all they want me to do is plant them. That's what gardening should be all about.
Martin
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Post by jonnyyuma on Nov 18, 2011 20:56:03 GMT -5
Hello Joseph, I agree with you on something's and disagree on others, but that's to be expected. Sometimes I wonder that hybrids aren't right for many situations. If I was a market farmer, I wouldn't want highly uniform hybrids and maybe op or landrace cultivars would be better. It's funny, I see people unhappy for asking something of a variety that it was never genetically capable of. Thanks Jonny
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