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Post by oxbowfarm on Mar 24, 2014 11:35:32 GMT -5
maicerochico is there any understanding why the carotene doesn't get expressed as well when they grow it in the cornbelt?
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Post by maicerochico on Mar 24, 2014 15:10:20 GMT -5
More than likely the limited color development has something to do with the soil there, much like how different soils can affect taste and texture.
I don't know the history and condition of the plots that GRIN uses to increase their seeds, but I'd wager that they've been cropped a lot over the years, likely to corn. In contrast, both plots in which I've grown Cateto over the last 2 years have been fallow for decades. Both times, the yellow Iowa-grown Cateto seed lots gave deep orange ears.
It is interesting to note, however, that when I grew "Piamonte" corn from Sandhill Preservation Center (which is a Cateto heirloom), the seeds I received from them were the proper color, albeit a little less rich. Sandhill is in Iowa too, so I don't know.
Again, local soil is all I can think of. I'd like to see what color Cateto produces in old Deep South cotton fields, considering how worn out that soil is.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Mar 24, 2014 17:05:43 GMT -5
Thanks maicerochico, that's an interesting idea. I'd say that Iowa soil was in general superior soil in it's virgin state than the old cotton soils, but they've both been mined pretty hard.
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Post by jondear on Oct 26, 2015 10:28:25 GMT -5
"Cateto Sulino" is the southernmost representative of the Cateto complex that spans coastal areas from northern Brazil all the way to mid-Argentina (hence the "Sulino" in its name). It was once the backbone of Argentine maize agriculture, but Corn Belt Dent and several tropical Brazilian dent races are being used now also. If anyone wants high quality, temperate-adapted Cateto germplasm, stay away from heirlooms, and look at these two GRIN accessions instead.: For medium to long season areas: www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1346627 (The kernels are yellowish in the picture, but they develop a deep orange outside of the Corn Belt where GRIN's current seed stock was grown.) This population is the source of Joseph's seed. To physiologically mature grain (but not dry) is around 115 days in southern Iowa. For short seasons: www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1597794 (This one is a derivative of the above accession, but it is a good bit earlier.) For anyone concerned about growing corn developed by multinationals, Cargill, Inc. bred and donated this material before GMO's hit the market. It has been sitting in cold-storage since 1981 when GRIN last increased their stock, so chances of transgenic contamination are close to nil. Be advised that 'coons and crows REALLY like Cateto corn. Also, the grains are about as hard as Northern Flint, so Cateto is better used for hominy than cornmeal in my opinion. Hominy made from Cateto keeps its color and is deep yellowish-orange. Chewy but very tasty and filling, especially when combined with common beans in stews. Just to show off colors, this Cuarenton Cateto variety (Little Red Flint) has the most intense endosperm color I've ever seen. www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1576260Genetically, 25% of Cargill's composite sources from this Cateto race, but they included a different variety (Cuarenton Rossi), so the color is not quite as intense. After seeing all the orange endosoerm corn you guys are growing, I requested these three varieties and PI 492896. The last one has much larger grain. I'm very excited to say, they came in today's mail. I have a couple of questions. Should I put the seed in the freezer until spring? Would you direct sow, or give them a start in trays? Any thoughts on days to silk, and or keeping them isolated from one another to increase seed? I only wonder because it may or may not be the freshest seed. I just want to maximize my chances of success.
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Post by maicerochico on Oct 26, 2015 18:07:46 GMT -5
I have only grown the original Cargill Cateto (PI 451691). Here in East Tennessee (1500 feet, 36'N latitude) it silks about 1300 heat units after planting (55 days). When I grew my batch from GRIN, it had a 60% germination rate. A cooperator got about the same results with his stock.
Unless your season is super short, you should be able to grow both Cargill populations via direct seeding. The unaltered South American accessions will be much more risky and unpredictable (probably of very late maturity). Just in my personal opinion, I would only focus on PI 451691, but that is your decision to make.
All the seed can be stored in the freezer until next spring without any issue.
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Post by jondear on Oct 26, 2015 22:38:57 GMT -5
I have high hopes for both Cargill populations. I have a feeling the CG might be better suited to Maine, but eventually combining the two might bring the best of both worlds.
I'm not sure why I'm so attracted to the orange color, but I had to give it a try. 60% germ rates aren't the best, I wondered if I'd get better if I started in a more controlled environment, but for simplicity's sake direct seeding would save a lot of hassle. Then again, I'd like to make every seed count.
Thanks for the information...
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Post by steev on Oct 27, 2015 1:45:32 GMT -5
Well, the oranger may be the more nutritive; isn't that why we grow food, to feed ourselves?
Yeah, I know, there's also idle curiousity, but isn't that just another way of "feeding" ourselves?
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Post by jondear on Jun 1, 2016 20:09:41 GMT -5
All of my orange corn is up via direct seeding. Germination rates were decent to excellent. I'm ready to get my nixtimalation on.
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Post by maicerochico on Jun 2, 2016 17:21:32 GMT -5
All of my orange corn is up via direct seeding. Germination rates were decent to excellent. I'm ready to get my nixtimalation on. Could you provide approximate germination %s for each accession?
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Post by jondear on Jun 3, 2016 20:11:00 GMT -5
PI 492896 @ 94%
Ames 25250 @ 91%
PI 613095 @ 83%
PI 451691 @ 64%
I had to go count how many and do the math... Not too bad, considering the age of some of these accessions.
I'm surprised at how much diversity you can see in the plants at about 3 inches tall and 3 or 4 leaves.
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Post by maicerochico on Jun 4, 2016 13:23:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the numbers. Your experience makes the 3rd time that PI 451691 has given mediocre germination. I'll report it to the maize curator at GRIN so that they can adjust their distribution amounts.
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Post by garand555 on Aug 29, 2016 14:52:12 GMT -5
I have a couple of cobs of flint/dent corn that are orange this year, and I'm not done harvesting yet. It's funny, none of the cultivars I started with had any orange in them. A geneticist friend of mine said that corn endosperm is triploidal and that means that you can get some interesting results when you start letting it cross. It's hard to see in that light, but the lighter kernels in the top cob are an orange that is just slightly off from what you would expect a pumpkin to be.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 29, 2016 16:47:15 GMT -5
True. Were they inbred lines and was anyone growing different varieties nearby?
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Post by garand555 on Aug 29, 2016 17:03:45 GMT -5
True. Were they inbred lines and was anyone growing different varieties nearby? My neighbour closest to where the corn is growing has been out of town too much to have a garden this year, and my other neighbor's garden is about 200'-300' away with various barriers between her garden and my corn. Besides, the closest neighbour only grows sweet corn. The lines are far from inbred. I planted mostly F1 through F3 hybrids this year and started with various heirlooms. If I see a new packet of seed labeled as flint, dent or flour corn when I'm in a nursery, I snag it and also include it every year. It seems like it throws something new out at me every year. Those husks are like wrapping paper on Christmas morning. I'm halfway tempted to see if I can get a neighbour to let me borrow a plot of land away from my corn, track down some black flint corn, and see if I can get an orange and black corn and stabilize it. I bet you could make some decent money off of that selling something like that as a decoration in the weeks leading up to Halloween.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 29, 2016 19:12:38 GMT -5
Then you likely are looking at segregation rather than cross pollination (sorry, you probably knew that but it wasn't clear to me from your initial description ). In corn kernels, the endosperm is covered by the aleurone and pericarp layers. Each can be colored in different ways, and the genetics is complicated with color gene, enhancer gene and suppressor gene networks in the different tissues. It would be informative to section carefully a few kernels with a razor blade (easier before they dry completely!) to get a better view of what is going on inside. Here are a few older threads that have some relevant info and images: alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6258alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6702The Halloween Corn idea sounds like a neat project!
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