andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Jul 5, 2018 22:16:07 GMT -5
steve1, thanks for the link. I hadn't come across that paper, and hadn't heard of those other varieties with partial compatibility. ICA pijao is everywhere in the literature. It seems like almost all newish papers involving P vulgaris / P acutifolius crosses use it. I should probably request some seed for it and see if I can introgress those compatibility genes into a runner bean and maybe improve my chances on P coccineus x P acutifolius crosses.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Jun 12, 2018 22:32:42 GMT -5
Last winter, I got two seeds from attempted MolR x ((GGC x MolR) x GGC) crosses. I planted one of them, it sprouted, and the cotyledons are above the ground and right below the first leaves. Success!
This is the first time I've managed to get a wide cross with a runner bean seed parent. If it produces viable flowers I plan to cross it with several common beans, including some bush beans. I'll also let some flowers self-pollinate.
MolR = Moldovanesti Buffalo Runner Bean (P. coccineus) GGC = Golden Gaucho (P. vulgaris)
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Jun 11, 2018 22:13:35 GMT -5
Seeds from this project have germinated. 7 have cotyledons at or below ground-level. (Looking like runner beans). 3 have cotyledons above ground. (looking like common beans). ... Unsuccessful crosses? (common bean X runner bean). The 3 plants closest to camera have cotyledons high above ground. High Resolution photoThanks for the feedback! I think the middle one above might be a cross as well. The cotyledons are reasonably far below the leaves. It should be pretty easy to tell if they're real crosses by the time they flower, and certainly if you get seeds from them. I'm not terribly surprised that some of them probably aren't real crosses. I made a bunch of these crosses outside with pollen from flowers that were already open, and often in the evening when some pollen might have already been released before I emasculated the seed parent's flowers. I also hadn't started dipping my tweezers in alcohol between crosses, for many of them.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Jun 6, 2018 13:08:15 GMT -5
did anyone save a copy of bean_pollination.pdf ? I found a lot of useful information in this thread and in The Story of Bean Breeding! I'm attempting a cross of P. coccineus and P. polystachios. bean.css.msu.edu/_pdf/bean_pollination.pdfThere are few of us trying the same. Do you have access to P. polystachios? Best, Srdjan Nice job finding that document, Srdjan. I searched around a few days ago but couldn't find it. ppp, welcome! I'd love to hear more about your bean project and any other projects you might be working on. I've been working with wide bean crosses for the last couple of years and have some P. coccineus and P. polystachios plants growing right now. When I have flowers on both, I plan to start attempting crosses. I've been posting off and on about my bean projects on the Phaseolus vulgaris group wide crosses thread. The bean_polliation.pdf document is a very good introduction, but the technique it describes is really only for crosses between varieties of the same species. For crosses between species, I've found that I need to do full emasculations before applying the pollen. If you've already been making crosses, I'd be interested in learning more about the details of your crossing technique. If you haven't, I'd be glad to share some of my experiences.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on May 31, 2018 15:36:09 GMT -5
toomanyirons, thanks for the grow report! To add a little context, these are mostly attempted F1 common x runner bean crosses. I think I also sent you some F1 tepary crosses, but I don't remember for sure. I'm most interested in how many of the common x runner beans are real crosses, and not selfed. At this stage, you can tell by looking at the position of the cotyledons relative to the soil and to the first true leaves. If they're selfed common beans, the cotyledons will be right below the leaves. If they're crossed with runner beans, the cotyledons will be quite a bit lower, maybe mid-way between the ground and the leaves. Later on, when they're flowering, I'd expect any crosses to have pink, peach, or red flowers. I think this thread is a good place to post updates, but don't worry about keeping careful notes just for me.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on May 31, 2018 15:10:15 GMT -5
Glad to hear you're putting those seeds to good use! I hope you start to get some adaptation to your environment. I'd love to see tepary beans more widely grown, in general.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on May 7, 2018 22:39:48 GMT -5
My son and I planted two 72-cell trays with the four-way tomato crosses. Got to it a little late, but I think we should be fine. Yesterday, we selected for vigor and for dark purple color on the bottoms of the leaves. It turns out that his primary goal is to have a purple tomato, since purple is his favorite color. One of the grandparents is Clackamas Blueberry, so the genes should be in the mix.
It was interesting seeing the variation in leaf structure, and I was pleasantly surprised by how few seemed to be weak plants. Only about 1/4 were noticeably smaller than the others, and that might have been largely caused by not watering them for a week after we planted them, since we were out of town on vacation.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on May 7, 2018 22:29:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the grow report, Joseph Lofthouse! I've been meaning to post for a while about some more tepary F2 seeds I'd like to send out to interested growers. I have about 100 Menager's Dam Brown x Blue Speckled F2 tepary beans. Also have twenty or so F1 seeds as well. I'd like to send out something like five packets of ~20 F2s and a few F1s each. PM me if you're interested.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Bean ID
Mar 5, 2018 23:18:05 GMT -5
Post by andyb on Mar 5, 2018 23:18:05 GMT -5
I misread your question and thought that you were asking if it was a common or runner bean. In trying to make sure before saying anything, I came across a book from CIAT, available on Google Books, that talks through how to tell the species apart. The chapter "Differentiation among the four cultivated species of the genus Phaseolus" starts on page 24: The Cultivated Species of Phaseolus
I've grown several white runner beans that looked pretty much exactly like that. Most seem to be from southern Europe. For example, the Moldovanesti Buffalo Runner Bean I've been growing recently looks pretty much identical to your plant.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Mar 1, 2018 0:39:10 GMT -5
steve1 these experiments are with runner bean pollen. I don't have any other plants growing right now, and I'm going to toss these plants in a week or so. For now, I'm mostly just practicing working with the chemicals and the microscope and working through how to optimize a pollen germination recipe. Thanks for the link to the paper with the recipe for tepary pollen. I think I'll be attempting actual crosses with added goops and severed styles on runner x tepary crosses in about 2 months. I may also try some crosses with P. polystachios. My tests with applying tepary pollen directly to the end of cut runner bean styles all failed to set pods. For all of my bean crosses, I've been closing the petals back up and clamping the bud shut with a bent piece of twisty-tie. The pollen in the picture I posted is actually germinated, though just barely. It's a lot easier to see through the microscope than in my low-quality photo. The lumps on the pollen grains are the beginnings of pollen tubes. Last night, I tried adding the CaCl 2 and, despite an arithmetic error and adding about twice what I was aiming for, got pollen tubes that grew over the course of 90 minutes to a bit longer than one pollen grain diameter before bursting. Progress!
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Feb 27, 2018 23:15:49 GMT -5
keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) that's a nice photo. I don't have a camera set up on my microscope, so I've just been taking pictures with my phone through the eyepiece. Works reasonably well. First, here's a link to a short review article I found that describes the different compounds people generally use for in-vitro pollen germination media. It describes the function of each compound, which I think should be useful in figuring out which one to adjust when things don't work: In Vitro Pollen Germination - A ReviewYou'll definitely need some water to get the boric acid, sugar, and salts in solution. I imagine there are other solvents they would dissolve in, but the water is probably needed to trigger germination, as walt said. I'm starting my mini-project by just trying to get good pollen germination and growth in water solution. After that, I'm probably going to mess around with creating an emulsion using some sort of oil and that identical water solution. If that doesn't work, I'll start messing with the ratios again. steve1 sent me a recipe from a paper about germinating P. angustissimus pollen (a bean wild relative.) I followed it reasonably closely, making substitutions as needed since I don't have a fully-stocked cabinet of chemicals, and got germination within a minute or two each time. Last night, I increased the sugar concentration and had much slower bursting. Still pretty poor pollen tube growth, though. The recipe from the paper is: sucrose: 40% H 3BO 3: 400-500 mg / l CaNO 3: 600 mg / l MgSO 4: 400 mg / l KNO3: 200-400 mg/l I made up stock solutions of 1% H 3BO 3 and 20% Shultz All-purpose Liquid Fertilizer. After making a solution with 20 g table sugar and < 30 ml water, I added 2.5 ml H 3BO 3 1% , 1 ml fertilizer 20% and topped up the total water to 30 ml. This solution doesn't have any Ca at all, which might be why they're still bursting. I picked up some Damp Rid (CaCl 2) and I'm going to add some of it the next time around. Since I didn't have cover slips, I used little squares of cling wrap. They worked surprisingly well. When I got some cover slips, it turns out that cover slips completely smash the pollen grains when used with a regular slide. I picked up some well slides that I want to try out, but the cling wrap trick is a good one. I saw a mention of Saran Wrap when I was skimming one of the papers you linked to, which is why I gave it a try in the first place. So, here's a picture of some germinated pollen grains before they popped like balloons:
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Feb 26, 2018 22:29:01 GMT -5
I spent yesterday evening watching pollen grains start to grow tubes and then pop, spilling their guts out onto the slide. I'd adjust the formula, try again, and about 9 minutes later, "Pop!" out came the guts. It was the most fun I've had in a long time. Thinking on it this morning, I think I made a mistake with the amount of sucrose in the solution. Hopefully I have a flower or two to work with again tonight. keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.), I imagine I'm going to have a fair number of posts on this subject, as I work my way through various species of beans and different techniques. It's pretty far from the main topic of this thread, but since we're both trying very similar overall techniques it's nice having the discussion in one place. Would you like me to create a new thread called "Advanced pollination techniques" or something, or are you fine with me continuing to post here?
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Feb 25, 2018 19:25:39 GMT -5
I have a few one year old seed-grown apple seedlings and am trying to figure out what rootstock to graft them onto. I'm renting, so I'll be giving the trees away to friends and family in the area, including my mother- and father-in-law. I really don't want to be responsible for one of them getting a broken hip from falling off a ladder while trying to pick apples, so I'm looking for a pretty strongly dwarfing rootstock, maybe in the short M-9 class. I'm also new to growing apples, so I also don't know much of anything about what disease resistances are most important for growing in the Seattle (Pacific Northwest USA) area.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Feb 24, 2018 0:55:30 GMT -5
I found a couple flowers on a P. coccineus plant and got excited. I spent two hours dusting off decades-old memories of lessons from high school chemistry, wrote out a bunch of conversion factors, and mixed solutions of fertilizer, sugar, and boric acid. A few final pours and I had 50 ml of in-vitro pollen germination solution ready to go. I got my microscope out. Got the slides out and...no cover slips. I searched the whole basement and they were nowhere to be found. Gaar.
Amazon is shipping me some, along with some well slides.
There are some more flower buds. Looks like the next batch will be open on Sunday.
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andyb
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Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Feb 20, 2018 22:51:26 GMT -5
Most of the papers I've read (mostly found by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.), thanks!) start with a section where the authors try out some pollen with their preferred elixir or a range of elixirs with various recipes in a model environment first, confirming the pollen germination with a microscope. Everyone seems to have a slightly different technique. After they confirm germination and good pollen tube growth, they move on to flowers on real plants. Knowing myself, I'll probably take one or two shots in the dark and, when they don't work, let out a long sigh and run a proper experiment.
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