|
|
Post by starry on Aug 26, 2013 11:05:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Tim, I was planning on building tripods around the Zea diploperennis plants and shrouding them in Black plastic to shorten day length, but your dustbin idea sounds a lot easier. I have been formulating a plan to work around the hardiness issue on this project. I figure that as diploperennis is rhizomus, you could just lift the corn-like F2's in autumn to identify plants that have rhizomes, and bring these rhizomus individuals into a frost free environment to overwinter. You could then back cross these perennial corn plants to sweetcorn and repeat the process of inbreeding, identification of perennial individuals, overwintering, and back crossing until you have a viable perennial population. At this point you could start selection for hardiness by collecting the seed and leaving the plants in the ground to overwinter, the following season you would just restart from seed and any surviving overwintered plants could be placed in the field to introgress the genes for greater hardiness into the larger population, and then repeat the process until you have a viable hardy population of perennial sweetcorn. I know that all this will take some time and more than a little luck, but I think it could work. Even if hardiness isn't achievable it provides a means for people in colder climates to breed a perennial sweetcorn. So what do people think, any amendments or suggestions? 'Thanks for the info Tim, I was planning on building tripods around the Zea diploperennis plants and shrouding them in Black plastic to shorten day length, but your dustbin idea sounds a lot easier.' It is soooo much easier, just flip them on, flip them off. Not many wind problems either. ...put them on sometime when plants get mid-knee high, ...in the evening. Pull them off in the morning when there is less than 12 hrs of daylight left ''I have been formulating a plan to work around the hardiness issue on this project. I figure that as diploperennis is rhizomus, you could just lift the corn-like F2's in autumn to identify plants that have rhizomes, and bring these rhizomus individuals into a frost free environment to overwinter. You could then back cross these perennial corn plants to sweetcorn and repeat the process of inbreeding, identification of perennial individuals, overwintering, and back crossing until you have a viable perennial population.' Sounds good... the problem I ran into was diseases that would rot the plants to death ...We would frost out in mid-late Sept. and not get regrowth temps until May...that is a long time to sit there and it calls for all the rot resistance you can find, esp. when the temps are largely mud-sloppy 30s-40s F. ...Of course, if you can afford to heat a place for these guys you will probably be fine. ...I always had a budget that just hovered above survival and heat was basically beyond affordable. 'At this point you could start selection for hardiness by collecting the seed and leaving the plants in the ground to overwinter, the following season you would just restart from seed and any surviving overwintered plants could be placed in the field to introgress the genes for greater hardiness into the larger population, and then repeat the process until you have a viable hardy population of perennial sweetcorn. ' That is a good basic concept, ...that is the general idea and approach I have used effectively for part of any one of my perennial grain, tomato, cuke, squash, ground cherry, etc. programs ...some things tend to nearly entirely self pollenate and with those groups you have to come up with an unique approach to the bottleneck. One other thing that I have noted, that may interest you. In wide crosses that have more than common incompatibility, if you can vegatatively propagate these individuals and keep them going, and esp if you can grow large numbers, you will on occasion as a result of genetic sluffing, mutation of any number of sorts, you will occasionally find more fertility, or better traits showing in backcrosses... that sort of thing. That is my occasional experience, and that can be the experince that make the world of difference in where your project goes. 'I know that all this will take some time and more than a little luck, but I think it could work. Even if hardiness isn't achievable it provides a means for people in colder climates to breed a perennial sweetcorn. ' ...you always have the element of chance... treasure your exceptions, you may never see the like again ...sometimes your 1 in 10 was really1 in a billion and you just didn't know it. 'So what do people think, any amendments or suggestions?' ...not much... I have a couple of good Tripsacum for you when you are readyfor them. ...start them several months ahead of setting out or it may take 2 years to bloom. Is this project still in the works? I find it fascinating. |
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 1, 2015 13:13:46 GMT -5
This thread seemed the best to revive for this post. Saw this on the Experimental Farm Network on Facebook recently: Experimental Farm NetworkNovember 19 at 8:13am These may look like pebbles, but they're actually really important seeds. Perennial Teosinte (Zea diploperennis), more typically known in English as "Diploperennial Teosinte", from the Sierra de Manantlan Occidental in Jalisco, Mexico. Collected in 1980 near a biological station alternately known as Zarzamora or Las Joyas. These seeds were grown for us by an EFN participant in Hawaii and just arrived in the mail yesterday. This highly endangered wild plant may be one of the ancestors of corn (some species of teosinte certainly is). It's potentially very important because it can be crossed with corn and pass on its perenniality. Much more research needs to be done alone these lines in order to develop perennial corn to help us fight climate change and conserve topsoil. Please support our work so we can continue getting these seeds out there and facilitating groundbreaking research: www.indiegogo.com/…/experimental-farm-network-fight… #thanks #teosinte #corn #cropwildrelatives #jalisco #mexico #perennial #permaculture #cop21 #climatecrisis #climatechange #experimentalfarming #efn  |
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 7:20:55 GMT -5
Bumping an old thread here...
I did read somewhere (I think?) that covering (I guess the same) couple of leaves instead of the whole plant may work. Reviewing the function of Florigen that inhibits the reproductive stage in short day plants, it seems to make sense that if some of the plant produces the hormone for reproductive development it may be enough to trigger flowering.
I have Zea diploperennis flowering as of today. Only silks, but flowering 75 odd days after planting in a growth room. Tried to pollinate using Hopi blue, but will try the reciprocal cross when teosinte pollen comes online. Interesting that diploperennis is naturalised in a few sites in Queensland, Australia - from what I can gather introduced/trialed many years ago as a tropical cattle forage.
|
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 6, 2019 7:24:15 GMT -5
Bumping an old thread here... I did read somewhere (I think?) that covering (I guess the same) couple of leaves instead of the whole plant may work. Reviewing the function of Florigen that inhibits the reproductive stage in short day plants, it seems to make sense that if some of the plant produces the hormone for reproductive development it may be enough to trigger flowering. I have Zea diploperennis flowering as of today. Only silks, but flowering 75 odd days after planting in a growth room. Tried to pollinate using Hopi blue, but will try the reciprocal cross when teosinte pollen comes online. Interesting that diploperennis is naturalised in a few sites in Queensland, Australia - from what I can gather introduced/trialed many years ago as a tropical cattle forage. Yes, I think I'm the one who found a paper that said that and shared it here. I wouldn't know if I could find it again, but yeah. I forgot about it though Haha. Cool! Let us know how it goes. I'm still interested in this. |
|
|
|
Post by walt on Sept 6, 2019 13:19:03 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct?
I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics?
|
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 17:16:24 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct? I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics? Yes, it seems Zea diploperennis is somewhat neglected. I’m in a long day summer climate, but have germinated/ grown them in a growth room. Fair to say that I agree with you about why it hasn’t been worked with more. Hopefully, it’ll produce pollen soon and I can get some crosses done. 1% viable seed from maize crosses is what I’ve read for the non perennial teosinte. I would like to try and have crosses both ways to preserve the dip cytoplasm - but we will see what I can get. On a positive note in a growth room at 12 hrs day length it will probably continue to flower. |
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 6, 2019 18:35:59 GMT -5
Bumping an old thread here... I did read somewhere (I think?) that covering (I guess the same) couple of leaves instead of the whole plant may work. Reviewing the function of Florigen that inhibits the reproductive stage in short day plants, it seems to make sense that if some of the plant produces the hormone for reproductive development it may be enough to trigger flowering. I have Zea diploperennis flowering as of today. Only silks, but flowering 75 odd days after planting in a growth room. Tried to pollinate using Hopi blue, but will try the reciprocal cross when teosinte pollen comes online. Interesting that diploperennis is naturalised in a few sites in Queensland, Australia - from what I can gather introduced/trialed many years ago as a tropical cattle forage. Yes, I think I'm the one who found a paper that said that and shared it here. I wouldn't know if I could find it again, but yeah. I forgot about it though Haha. Cool! Let us know how it goes. I'm still interested in this. Yes Andrew, I think you are the one who found the paper. I can’t find it either. Will update when I have progress. |
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 6, 2019 19:35:09 GMT -5
Yes Andrew, I think you are the one who found the paper. I can’t find it either. Will update when I have progress. Found it! reed! I have an idea! Apparently you only need to cover one leaf on each plant to get them to flower early! I think this would work on non-day-neutral teosinte! www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cDovL2l0dW5lc2NvbnRlbnQudWNkYXZpcy5lZHUvbWVkaWEvMjAwOS9XSS9QTEIxMTIvMTAwLnJzcw&episode=aHR0cDovL2l0dW5lc2NvbnRlbnQudWNkYXZpcy5lZHUvbWVkaWEvMjAwOS9XSS9QTEIxMTIvUExCMTEyLTFfMjAwOS0wMy0wNS5tcDMThis course, taught by UC Davis plant biology professor John Harada, focuses on the mechanisms and control processes that underlie plant growth, development and response to the environment, with primary attention devoted to flowering plants. Topics are selected to emphasize developmental concepts applicable to several aspects of plant growth and development. Material is presented by discussing experiments employing the approaches of morphology, physiology, genetics, and cell and molecular biology that were used to discover the biological information. (The course is targeted to upper division undergraduate students who have taken an introductory biology course and a genetics course. The audience is primarily general biology majors who do not specialize on plants.) "Podcast" plant growth and development winter 2009, episode #4, transition to flowering. |
|
|
|
Post by walt on Sept 7, 2019 14:43:51 GMT -5
Its been over 40 years since western science became aware of Zea diploperennis. But as far as I know, there are no perennial corn for eating, even in the tropics. Correct? I worked on it for 2 or 3 years starting 1982. Then I was shifted to perennial sorghum. I think the main problems for amatures have been lack of time and space. The main problem for professionals has been that it isn't quick and easy money. Have there really been other problems, at least in the tropics? Yes, it seems Zea diploperennis is somewhat neglected. I’m in a long day summer climate, but have germinated/ grown them in a growth room. Fair to say that I agree with you about why it hasn’t been worked with more. Hopefully, it’ll produce pollen soon and I can get some crosses done. 1% viable seed from maize crosses is what I’ve read for the non perennial teosinte. I would like to try and have crosses both ways to preserve the dip cytoplasm - but we will see what I can get. On a positive note in a growth room at 12 hrs day length it will probably continue to flower. 1% viable seed? I got more like 50% on Z. dip x popcorn and popcorn x Z. dip. Crosses with dent corn didn't do much worse. It could be that the Ga+, Ga, and Ga- pollen genes interactions could drop the % to 1. I don't know. My biggest problem with Z. dip x corn was the F1 seeds would get too big for the Z. dip seed capsules. They seeds would by shaped like an 8, and often broke in half. Solution was to be very careful. When that didn't work, check which half has the embryo and germinate it in clean conditions. Not sterile, but pretty clean. Sterile would be better I guess. Once germinated, they were as hardy as any corn seedlings. Corn x Z. perennis and Z. perennis x corn would be more like 1% or less viable plants maybe. That would be a ploidy issue though. |
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 7, 2019 19:21:10 GMT -5
Fair to say that is great news and you are one of the very few people that would know this. I couldn't find anything on Z.dip x maize, that was based on annual teosinte ssp. mexicana paper and yes pollen genes from memory. If I get 50% it will be much easier. Did you just not plant the F1 seeds in the seed case? That is how I sowed the Zea dip, 90+% germination.
|
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Sept 7, 2019 21:32:02 GMT -5
The zea hybrids that I shared with Joseph from the usda that he shared with Reed are descended from diploperennis.
|
|
|
|
Post by walt on Sept 8, 2019 13:55:11 GMT -5
Fair to say that is great news and you are one of the very few people that would know this. I couldn't find anything on Z.dip x maize, that was based on annual teosinte ssp. mexicana paper and yes pollen genes from memory. If I get 50% it will be much easier. Did you just not plant the F1 seeds in the seed case? That is how I sowed the Zea dip, 90+% germination. I always removed the seed case from Z. dip. and its children. I don't remember even trying one still in its case as a control. The F1 seeds from Z. dip. x corn broke in half very easily. I just assumed it would be better if planted without the case. I tried to remove the case without breaking the seed. Sometimes I succeeded. I got to the point where I had lots of advanced generation seeds, more or less 1/2 corn, 1/2 Z. dip. By that time I'd selected for no case and good rhizomes. Then the plug was pulled on the project. |
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 10, 2019 5:36:41 GMT -5
The only reason I sowed it in it's case was because the guy who had grown it always did it that way - I asked, as I think I had read one of your post previously. Knowledgeable guy, whose opinion I trusted. Have done the first crosses. Wait and see time. Hopefully the Zea dip will produce pollen soon and I can do the reciprocal cross.
|
|
|
|
Post by steve1 on Sept 15, 2019 7:05:38 GMT -5
walt, did the crosses work both ways and do you remember whether perenniality occured both ways if so?
|
|
|
|
Post by walt on Oct 24, 2019 12:56:26 GMT -5
I made the cross in both directions.
Domestic corn gives a lot more pollen, and it was poured onto any Z. dip silks I could find. Problem was that Z. dip has few seeds per "ear". And the F1 hybrid seeds would grow part way out of the capsule, giving a weak waist that often broke, reducing percent good seedlings.
With domestic corn as seed parent, There was seldom enough Z. dip pollen to get full seed set. The few times there were several Z. dip tassels blooming with few domestic corn ears to pollinate, I got moderately well filled ears. And the seeds sprouted and grew well. I did open the ear husks and pollinated the domestic corn silks near were they attached, believing the Z. dip pollen wasn't adapted to the longer silks of domestic corn. That was done by other scientists pollinating corn with pollen from the short-silked tripsicum pollen.
The F1 hybrids had rhizomes and was perennial (in the greenhouse) no matter which was the seed parent.
F1 plants had good fertility no matter which way the cross had been made. F2 seeds had the "waist" mentioned above, due to the seed being too big for the seed capsule and squeezing part way out.
F1 plants backcrossed well to either parent. F1 plant worked well as either seed or pollen parent. At least well enough.
F1 and f2 plants needed lots of water. Z. dip comes from cloud forest. That is like a rain forest except it is on mountains that stick up into the clouds.
F2 seedlings had variable amounts of rhizomes, as would be expected.
I don't remember if the project was stopped before or after the F3 seeds were grown. If the F3 was grown, it also needed lots of water. All the progeny did, even though some of the corn parents were drought tolerent varieties from Native Seeds Search. Other corn parents were Strawberry popcorn, Country Gentleman. Goldam Bantam, and some tripsicum-introgressed corn from Drs. Harlan and DeWet at U. of Illinois.
None of the plants showed worthwhile variation for cold tolerance except the tripsicum introgressed corn. Even it had little cold tolerance.
|
|
