wheat

[atimberline]

www.postr.in/wheat/
this link gives you some quick, good overview of wheat. ...that includes spelt, kamut ... it does not go into triticales which are nearly wheat in many cases.

[PatrickW]

Hi Tim,

What kind of cross pollination issues are there with the various per grains?

I think I read a while ago that wheat is mostly inbreeding, but will cross a little, 5-10%? Is this right? Insect pollinated? What's a good isolation distance, or other method?

I grow a little spelt, do I need to isolate this from the per wheat? Will the two cross, and have you ever tried for per spelt?

[bunkie]

good question patrick! i was going to keep all the grains in one patch, separating the perennials into another.

[johno]

Yeah, I was thinking of getting an anuual wheat, too, but wondering if there might be crossing issues with the perennial? Or are the chromosome sets incompatible?

Also, I'm glad I read the link, because I was about to order Kamut (Polish wheat) from Bountiful Gardens, where it is touted as being an ancient wheat; but I see now it is trademarked - what's the story on that?

[plantsnobin]

Tim, can you recommend any 'beginner' type books? Would Gene Logsdons book, written maybe in 1977, be a good starting point to learn, or have there been too many advances to make it a good one? Thanks

[atimberline]

Jan 15, 2009 10:13:28 GMT -5 PatrickW said:

Hi Tim,

What kind of cross pollination issues are there with the various per grains?

I think I read a while ago that wheat is mostly inbreeding, but will cross a little, 5-10%? Is this right? Insect pollinated? What's a good isolation distance, or other method?

I grow a little spelt, do I need to isolate this from the per wheat? Will the two cross, and have you ever tried for per spelt?

Hi Patrick,

What kind of cross pollination issues are there with the various per grains?

wheat is nearly 100% selfing
Rye is nearly 100% outcrossing, wind pollinated
Triticale is, generally, selected for rapidly true breeding lines, so, as a result is generally over 98% selfing
Sorghums are selfing if bagged (unless high temps kill the pollen), otherwise will wind pollenate like Maize/corn.
Millets of the Proso types are nearly 100% selfing
Oats are nearly 100% selfing

I think I read a while ago that wheat is mostly inbreeding, but will cross a little, 5-10%? Is this right? Insect pollinated? What's a good isolation distance, or other method?

Sorghums, Ryes should be treated like corn for isolation/purity. ...Perennials can be grown in a breeding/ trial block with all others so you get a side by side comparison, sel plants cut back, lifted, even divided, and moved to an isolated spot and then harvested for varietal seed... otherwise it is a gene pool of God knows what.

I grow a little spelt, do I need to isolate this from the per wheat?

no

Will the two cross, and have you ever tried for per spelt?

plenty of the perennials are more like spelt than commercial wheats... I try to work away from that miserable type. ...believe me even the animals and bugs applaud my efforts !

[atimberline]

Jan 15, 2009 18:04:22 GMT -5 @plantsnobin said:

Tim, can you recommend any 'beginner' type books? Would Gene Logsdons book, written maybe in 1977, be a good starting point to learn, or have there been too many advances to make it a good one? Thanks

Gene's Book is an excellent one, I would definitely recommend it to beginners as a nice starting point
Tim Peters

[atimberline]

Jan 15, 2009 15:11:22 GMT -5 johno said:

Yeah, I was thinking of getting an anuual wheat, too, but wondering if there might be crossing issues with the perennial? Or are the chromosome sets incompatible?

Also, I'm glad I read the link, because I was about to order Kamut (Polish wheat) from Bountiful Gardens, where it is touted as being an ancient wheat; but I see now it is trademarked - what's the story on that?

Johno... I don't know the story.

[bunkie]

johno, about a third or half way down on this link there's some info about trademarking and Kamut. for some reason the paragraphs won't copy...

mediterraneancooking.blogspot.com/2008/07/kamut.html

also, here is a progress report from plantings of last year at sunbow farm in corvallis oregon. a really interesting read about mulching and dry farming potatoes, the wheats, ryes, tritale, and the perennials, beans, etc... lots of info...

www.mudcitypress.com/PDF/bean.pdf

[canadamike]

The kamut word is a brand name of one type of polonicum. it is back in the public domain as per last year or 2 years ago... I checked at grin, the certificate is expired. I would go to a natural food store in this case... much cheaper...

[johno]

Thanks all.

[macmex]

Hey folks, I grew some wheat last year and most of it is cut and stacked in one of my out buildings. I'm not sure how to efficiently thresh the stuff. What do you do?

George

[bunkie]

Jan 26, 2009 6:57:00 GMT -5 macmex said:

Hey folks, I grew some wheat last year and most of it is cut and stacked in one of my out buildings. I'm not sure how to efficiently thresh the stuff. What do you do?

George

hi george! how much do you have? i had 75 - 100 perennial wheat plants. i did half rolling it between my hands and then winnowing it...placing it in a tray and then tossing the contents lightly in the air and gently blowing on it to get the chaff away from the seed. i still have my barley to do, so am going to try putting it in a flour sack/pillow case and do a dance on it with my feet, then winnow it. hope this helps.

[atimberline]

Jan 26, 2009 11:23:54 GMT -5 bunkie said:

Jan 26, 2009 6:57:00 GMT -5 macmex said:

Hey folks, I grew some wheat last year and most of it is cut and stacked in one of my out buildings. I'm not sure how to efficiently thresh the stuff. What do you do?

George

hi george! how much do you have? i had 75 - 100 perennial wheat plants. i did half rolling it between my hands and then winnowing it...placing it in a tray and then tossing the contents lightly in the air and gently blowing on it to get the chaff away from the seed. i still have my barley to do, so am going to try putting it in a flour sack/pillow case and do a dance on it with my feet, then winnow it. hope this helps.

Hi George, Bunkie,...and all

Bunkie, you have the idea...but I have been there and done all that. It works but is frustratingly slow for anything but individual plant selections.

Here are my suggestions for those of you who are growing grain but have no combine or small thresher per se.
For a thresher you can use/do the following with good relative efficiency.

METHOD 1
1. several large tarps. (i use the cheap plastic ones).
2. A large box fan. 3. A Leaf rake. 4. A 2x2 up to 3x3 square of hardware cloth (screen) of the right size, mounted on a wood frame, to let the seed thru quickly but keep back most/all the bigger untreshed head/pieces.
5. A good wheelbarrow. 6. Some 5 gal. buckets. 7. A rubber tired vehicle, like a car or truck. 8. A slab of cement, like a driveway or garage floor.

Harvest by hand, using your arm to bunch and one hand to grasp the head bunch (don't gather all that stalk material), and the other hand holding the rose/hand pruner/clipper to massively cut off the heads (below the hand that is grasping them just below the head).
Then drop them into your 35 gal plastic garbage can which you are dragging long, ...and repeat.

Dump heads on a tarp that is placed on the slab of cement (or very smooth ground). Perhaps put another tarp over the top. Drive your vehicle wheel over the pile, back and forth across the pile. Pull off tarp. Rake off onto top tarp the untreshed heads. Lift tarp sides to pile remaining, pour into bucket, set box fan on wheelbarrow handles, turn on high, stand on side and pour grain threshings into barrow in front of fan (on the barrow angled front side to create a deflected non damaging fall for seed), repeat, use a dustpan and dust broom to get back into bucket. put sceen over barrow, pour on as much seed as is sane, move the screen side to side vigourously across the top of barrow, throw residue back onto tarp for further thresh... repeat until satisfied with seed cleaning. Use a cookie sheet and tweezers to remove anything else from the batch, later.

METHOD 2
There are some old fashioned leaf shredders that can be made to run at low speeds and blades can be rubbered, i have one... exceeding useful and very quickly cleaned between varieties... I will get you all pictures I hope in the next couple of months, if I can get back across the country to where they are. ....this is used on the tarp with cloth drappery at base to keep it from spitting the seeds across the countryside... rest of procedure is as above... very quick once you get the hang of it. TAKE GREAT CARE TO KEEP SEEDS OF ONE VARIETY FROM HAVING ANOTHER VARIETY FLY INTO THEM... THIS IS EASIER BY FAR THAN TRYING TO CLEAN UP A VARIETY LATER, BELIEVE ME.

HAND THRESH METHOD
you can use a rough block of wood and a rubber mat to rub loose the seed of single head selections.

...hope these methods I developed help you
Tim Peters, seed and research

[Alan]

Good suggestions Tim, I'm going to sticky those to the top of the page for future reference.