Chaerophyllum bulbosum

[utopiate]

I'd like to get feedback from others who have tried to grow this crop. Chaerophyllum bulbosum. Common names: bulbous chervil, root chervil, tuberous chervil, parsnip rooted chervil, turnip rooted chervil. Not that same as the herbal chervil.

www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/V1-422.html

membres.lycos.fr/chervil/

I think it tastes delicious but I cannot get it to grow right in its first year. Mine usually always wither up and go dormant in the tops when much too small even if I keep the soil damp as advised. I think it doesn't like heat or dry air, though I am not exactly sure why they always fail.

This biennial grows a fat short half-long carrot shaped root up to five inches long (when grown properly). They are sweetish and very starchy and quite flavorful. The older forms were dark skinned with dark flesh, and more recent forms are cream colored with light flesh. They seem very cold hardy and are best eaten after exposure to cold, and may in fact be left in the ground like a parnsip but do not have the aromatic flavor of parsnips. Much better in my opinion.

Second year plants always grow just fine, vigorously shooting up to five feet or more with many flower heads seeding nicely. As with carrots, the roots become pretty much inedible then. Seeds don't store for long (one year) and need an eight week cold stratification period, so are often fall sown, but mice will often mow off every early spring plant.

Seeds can be hard to find, but are available from time to time. I have some, and I see a listing with Magic Garden Seeds in Europe, and J.L.Hudson Seedsman now lists the dark skinned form which I obtained. The Organic Garden Catalog in England carried them before, and B and T World Seeds should be able to get them.

They are mostly grown as a crop in regions of France with sandy soil.... but I wish I knew more about their climate requirements.

[canadamike]

I sowed about a thousand of them this fall. They basically are like garlic in terms of planting.

I'll harvest them in July here. My friend grows them in Kamouraska in Quebec, zone 4. They need a freeze-thaw cycle to germinate.

They are available in Quebec, Patrice, the owner of the seed company selling them, is selecting for large roots. France is investing a lot of money into them, the country is loosing the sugarbeet market to eastern european countries and see turnip rooted chervil as a good potential high value crop.

They absolutely need their cold treatment after harvest to transform the chemical compounds in the roots.

[orflo]

Chaerophyllum bulbosum is not an easy one, first of all obtaining fresh seeds, and second indeed, bulb-forming can be hard. I sow them every year, before winter to give them the required stratification, but I only got plants once...and I've been trying them every year again and again for over ten years.
These plants produced a small bulb however , and the one I managed to eat was very good (mice ate the rest, except for some very small ones).
There are two main varieties, chlaerophyllum bulbosum and chlaerophyllum bulbosum prescottii. The last one is said to be inferior in taste, but growing them out seems easier. My experiences are similar to the other chlaerophyllum though....This one is more grown in Russia, Siberia, up to Hungary, Austria,...
A word on history, turnip-rooted chervil is nowadays mostly associated with France, but it has only been introduced over there around 1850. It never has been grown out over there in very big quantities, but has probably earned some respect, in association with the respect French cuisine has earned in the twentieth century.
The country where more chaerophyllum is grown is Austria, over there it was already in culture in the 1550, though, again, never in big plots...
A word on the climate over here: grey, dull, rainy, and sometimes a bright day...Am I exaggerating here?

[utopiate]

Well I'm able to stratify them ok and have grown several cycles of them but only a handful ever made it to large size before going dormant, and none at all last season. Mike do yours grow to full size there... and are they the cream colored ones? I found a Canadian growing company listing them as produce.. first time I ever saw them listed in Canada, maybe that was your friends. I've fall planted them and they come up ok but get eaten fast by mice (so get ready for that Mike), or I stratify in damp sand in the fridge for two months and sprinkle down the row. I've transplanted quite a few from ponies also, though I know they advise growing in one place. Higher mouse survival with transplants I found. Works good when they are small but I can't get them to get big enough before they die down. I think this is a humidity issue or sun-shading problem. This is an interior somewhat arid climate, and this happens just as the summer sets in and sunlight gets intense. Orflo, just one? In ten years??? I thought I was dogged about continuing to try with them over several years of failure, but I at least get a handful. You didn't actually find Prescotti did you? Hristo and I were wondering if that one existed. Thats supposed to have reduced seed dormancy I guess, if it even exists as a cultivated form anymore.

[stevil]

I've never seen prescottii.

I've had this for about 15-years. The roots are small - I'm lucky to get 1/2 inch length! I've never really bothered with them for that reason. The first time I had them, I let them seed themselves and ended up with a bed full of these small almost unusable roots. I weeded all that I could, but they nevertheless persisted for several years in that bed; i.e., not many flower in the second year and some not before 4 or 5 years - at least in my cool climate. I think I've only let the plant seed itself 2-3 times over the years, but I still have it....

...and yes, they do tend to die back quite early in the season here too, despite our damp climate.

Would certainly be keen to try an improved selection some time..

[ottawagardener]

I got them through La societe des plantes but hadn't seen seed for sale here until them (pretty sure this is the same person that Michel is talking about). I sowed some of them in the fall this year but have never tried them before. From what I read about them previously, they are very finnicky to grow.

[utopiate]

Stevil, I wonder if you were growing the wild form.

I got my first seed packages from that French seed firm with their new supposedly highly developed cultivar which is supposed to form five inch long very fat roots. Well most of them went domant when barely an inch long, but somehow I babied a handful through summer in pots (I think shaded) and kept them growing. One new leaf would come out while another one yellowed and died, so they were barely avoiding dormancy. Anyway, come September and cooling temperature, I transplanted these still green plants to garden rows and they seemed to perk up and grow better and better through the cool months of fall... with nice rosettes of a low flat profile. Some still went dormant but most of these (about ten) went on to form the larger desired roots, some five inches long and nearly two inches thick. These were quite delicious when harvested in early November from freezing ground. I found them to be superb also in cooked and mashed form, looking like yellow mashed pototoes but with a much sweeter richer flavor. So the upshot is.. do these only grow in a cool, mild climate where they have enough time to get large before summer dormancy? Did I have the wrong strain for my climate? I have seen photos of sacks of big fat roots produced in France. Also one garden site in England says they grow well there, if kept moist. My seedlings survive the hard freezes we have early in the seasons, but maybe its too cold through those early months for them to grow much. They probably need a climate like San Francisco in late winter/spring is what I suspect. However, that Quebec grower you mention is certainly in a much harsher climate, so I hope to hear how these do for you Canadians.

Sandy soil is often mentioned as a requirement. Orflo, I would think these could grow well for you, but maybe the sandy soil is needed, and the mice are definately not needed.

Hristo mentions five inch roots for his. Hope he gives some input.

It really would be good to figure out how to grow this root because it certainly has the potential to serve as a delicious staple carbohydrate in northern latitudes.

[Hristo]

Will start first with prescottii - in Russia it is considered different species (Chaerophyllum prescottii) and not sub-species of bulbosum (I do not know which is correct). It is widespread in some parts of Russia (even as weed). It has edible roots. Seems no one there pay attention to it (nor to bulbosum). PFAF cites "Flora of USSR", these volumes are 60+ old. Nowadays seems 99.99% of the russian gardeners do not know/grow them. I suppose in the past there were some a bit improved (compared to the wild) forms, which today are extinct or extremely rare (I suppose extremely rare). Found the seedlist of one russian plant collector which list prescottii (I suppose wild), I will email him, but I'm not optimistic because as I see he grows only ornamental plants and I have nothing special to offer. But soon or later will find it since it is not so rare there.

Citation from one bulgarian book (mid 80's) "there are known 2 forms of C. bulbosum - european and siberian. The european has gray roots and better taste, the siberian has grey-brown or brown-red and bigger roots" (Of course this is for the wild forms).

"Hristo mentions five inch roots for his."

Steve, I mentioned 3 in, not 5. When I read you say there are 5 in varieties I thought " WOW they have impoved them a lot past 5 years". Then I checked my (awful) image of my first year roots (2004, seeds from Baumaux, no name on the package). And I was surprised that there were some near 5 in. roots ! As I remember I received the seeds april or may. I did't wanted to loose whole year, so despite I knew they are sown autumn and harvested july/august, I put them moist in the frigde and after about 8 weeks they germinated (in the fridge (5-6C)). So I sowed them maybe july and the results were large roots (2004 was cold and rainy year). After that year I didn't manage to get as large roots, but there are some good reasons for that (mostly because of me) 2006 I sowed them late and they germinated may (1-2 months later than usual), that year was hot and dry, so for less than 3 months they become small. 2007 just same story + it was even hotter (70+ days with 30 to 39 celsius) and dryer year. For 2008 I sowed them in time, but VERY densely and I didn't thin them (guilty ;D), so... This year I promised myself to pay more attention to them. Will see this august...

Steve, seems summer planting gave very good results to us! Unfortunately.... I didn't mentioned that C. bulbosum seems susceptible to mildew. Most years that disease is problematic here, especially after mid august, so another problem for solving...

Here is the image of my 2004 roots:
www.geocities.com/bg_seeds/chbulb2004.jpg
Didn't posted it here because it is too ugly. You will ask are all my roots are as these? No! These were planted on previous autumn abundantly (10 cm/4 in layer) manured patch (for my giant pumpkins). Sinse then I planted few times different root crops (carrots, yam, salsify, scorzonera...) in previous autumn abundantly manured patches and learned that this gives awful results (don't try this at home ;D).

[utopiate]

I checked my email...you did say 3 inches. Sorry. I'm usually not an exaggerator. At least it is good that your roots agree with me. Those do look a bit gnarly. Well I had been reading five inches from a lot of info sources and got it stuck in my head I guess. Did I read somewhere that manure makes gnarly carot roots? Well I did get some five inchers, but I sure can't seem to do it a second time. I tried summer planting here but it is too hot and they all went dormant as mini-tubers. I'm going to try shade growing in pots, just samples. I got the dark skinnned European form. I will post a pic of a bulging sack of those gray ones if I can find it again. They all appeared quite large.

Hey check my latest pic post on Chinese Arrowhead. I got some of the cultivated ones and for a sagittaria they are huge. No exaggeration!

[Hristo]

Feb 2, 2009 19:08:05 GMT -5 utopiate said:

Those do look a bit gnarly.

I'm afraid to ask about your criterion for A LOT gnarly ;D

Feb 2, 2009 19:08:05 GMT -5 utopiate said:

Hey check my latest pic post on Chinese Arrowhead.

Those Sagittaria cuneata tubers looks amazingly beautiful, compåting Frank's ullucos and mashuas

[utopiate]

I like the girls at the top of the page even more than the Sagittaria cuneata. Wish I could grow some of them. Those colorful tubers would look good strung like beads around their pretty necks.

[utopiate]

This is probably the grayish skinned European form. Someone clearly can grow them ok. Thinking it might be the one I recently acquired from JL Hudson, newly listed.

www.desicca.de/plant_breeding/Archive/Pictures2/chervil1.jpg

And these are more recent selected cultivars by a French firm (probably patented), compared to wild roots. They still won't grow well for me.


By utopiate at 2009-02-04

[canadamike]

They apparently appreciate a lot of mulching.

[Hristo]

Feb 4, 2009 14:51:58 GMT -5 utopiate said:

And these are more recent selected cultivars by a French firm (probably patented), compared to wild roots. They still won't grow well for me.


By utopiate at 2009-02-04

I checked my archive and I will not call them more recent, because that site (membres.lycos.fr/chervil/) is not changed past 5 years (that image in my archive is dated april 2004). And I do not know since how many years before then that site exist. They look very much like that from Baumaux.
At least I suppose you will use them as donor for size genes?

[utopiate]

You were wondering about the word "gnarly". If you compare these to your photo of the Baumaux ones... I don't quite see how you can say they look very much the same. And yes they are more recent cultivars than the gray skinned forms I do believe. I could insert the phrase "relatively recent" if you isist on quibbling about petty things.

Would you like me to start correcting your English grammar in these posts, since such little things matter to you?