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Post by mnjrutherford on Oct 20, 2009 15:00:20 GMT -5
Those are some darn good questions Bunkie and I really can't answer them exactly. What I can tell you is that the fire will go out on it's own every 5 to 6 days or so. UNLESS it gets some sort of fat thrown on it. Then it flares up and dies slowly again. I'm guessing that there is some stuff that burns really hot, like the fats and weeds and branchy stuff that goes on. Other stuff, like kitchen trash, grass, poo, and dirt smolders more slowly and at a lower heat. I haven't really conjured a way to acquire a reliable, constant, or consistent measurement, VERY open to suggestion though.
On the other hand, I can't imagine that the people that originally created this stuff did much more that set it alight every so often as well. I DO think they probably added a lot more animal matter in the way of bones, fat, possibly skins and so forth either as a direct result of the butchering process, as it rotted and became inedible and in the form of human poo. But that's merely conjecture on my part.
As for killing off the good parts of the dog poo, again, I just couldn't say. I've thought about it myself but we just don't have the means to test it. Not yet at least. Come next spring, when we hit the 1 year mark, I'm thinking of scraping off the top 5" or 6" and pulling out the bottom stuff, however much that is, and getting it tested to see just what the heck happened. I was going to allow it to sit and "cure" for a second year while building and firing a second pit as a rotation. But, I'm thinking I'm WAY to curious to do that this first year. I've learned a lot more particularly about the "bio-char". I believe/hope that we may have been more successful in making that component than we expected. But again, we have to wait and see.
Sounds like you've been pondering this whole thing yourself. I sure would like to hear and thoughts you have!
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Post by solarguy on Oct 27, 2009 21:28:52 GMT -5
My first humanure compost pile will be nicely aged (1+year after active hot composting) next spring. I'm so excited I can hardly stand it.
A few general comments are in order.
For those who are apprehensive about using human feces, I respect that. You should understand though, that if you don't compost your feces, then you lose control. Sure, it's tempting to think that the big fancy expensive centralized high tech waste treatment facility takes feces and turns them into something safe that we don't want to think too much about. The fact is, a certain percentage of them are old and outdated, undersized, underfunded, and every time it rains much, they release raw shit into the watershed. If you live close to one, you should go have a friendly non-confrontational conversation about how they respond to an overload and what the consequences are. Or maybe you don't live close to one, which is good. But it means, when it rains a lot, you're maybe shitting in somebody else's back yard, which is worse in a way.
Also, human urine contains most of the nitrogen (compared to the feces) and it's sterile unless there is something very wrong. If you're just too squeamish to deal with feces, at the very least, pee in a container and use it to enhance your regular compost pile. It is THE BEST free compost stimulator on the planet. Even without composting, just water it down 4:1 (or 10:1 for plants that just want a light feeding.) and dump it on the plants. Turning irreplaceable natural gas into fertilizer is, ummm, short sighted to put it mildly.
Humanure composting is, as previously mentioned, totally different than the asian use of night soil, aka raw human sewage. Totally different, with emphasis. Safe, etc. etc. etc.
My own personal system is several five gallon buckets. I use shredded paper and rabbit pellets in about a 3:1 ratio to soak up and cover up the pee and poo. There is a little bit of smell, but mostly from the wet alfalfa pellets. The buckets come with a tight fitting lid, so no flies, very sanitary, etc etc etc. I found this more effective than sawdust alone.
I was surprised at how little effort this requires. My compost container is re-used pallets, with some scrap plywood to close up the bigger gaps. I use a paint roller and oil the pallets with used veggie oil, durability seems pretty good after 1+ year.
As a bonus, you can put your 3 buckets, with lids on, stacked unobtrusively anywhere, even in a closet, and presto, an extra bathroom. No extra plumbing required.
The humanure book is very well written and gives many compelling arguments as to the safety and necessity of fixing this problem on-site and turn a weakness into a strength/asset. The book is available in its entirety as a free download. Two minutes on google will find it for you. If you want, I'll even find the link for you.
For those with reluctant spouses, here's an issue for discussion. If your big expensive high tech waste treatment plant goes down for some reason, and it does happen, or the pipe between you and them gets clogged or broken, your house will basically become unusable in about three days. Gee, maybe we should have some kind of backup plan. Here sweetie, read this funny book called, "Humanure". Three or four buckets, a bag of bunny pellets and some shredded paper costs less than 25 bucks.
Please carry on.
troy
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Post by ottawagardener on Oct 27, 2009 21:59:28 GMT -5
Solarguy: After reading Humanure I was a convert but I have a MUCH harder time trying to convince my husband who is QUITE squeamish about the idea. We can't feasibly do any 'solid' compost production where we live at the moment but we are moving to the country soon and I warn all you guys, I will have a humanure station in my abode even if my husband doesn't use it. For the meantime, I let the kids pee freely in the garden... yes, there is kid pee on the lawn  |
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Post by solarguy on Oct 28, 2009 9:09:03 GMT -5
Dear Ottawa,
Woo hoo on the new/bigger property.
While my wife understands my position on human waste composting, she herself has elected not to participate. For her, I think it's not so much the yuck factor as the weird factor.
On the other hand, in ten years, I bet you and I both look like geniuses.
Please carry on,
troy
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Post by silverseeds on Oct 28, 2009 9:35:09 GMT -5
MY wife is for it, but I have to wait until I can buy a "official" type setup. she wont let me use buckets and such.......
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Post by davidintx on Oct 28, 2009 14:24:01 GMT -5
Solarguy, does that 3 to 1 ratio concern the ratio of shredded newspaper to rabbit pellets or the paper and pellets together compared to the pooh?
Also, would you mind elaborating more on your system, as far as what you do specifically once a bucket is filled? Do you let it age in the bucket for a year, and then after that what will you do with it? Directly in the garden, or mix with typical compost pile, or what? I am currently feeding my outside dogs' feces to black soldier fly larvae and they are doing a nice job of composting it down. I'm trying to get different ideas on composting techniques for feces and just regular kitchen waste. Am currently doing bokashi in the kitchen, and wondered if using the bokashi shredded newspaper from Woodchuck's article would be good to try out composting the feces. Anyway, was curious as to what further processing you had in mind once the bucket was full. I'm glad you have commented on what you do. I have been thinking about this particular thing for a while.
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Post by solarguy on Oct 28, 2009 21:45:18 GMT -5
Dear David,
The 3:1 ratio is the ratio of shredded paper to alfalfa pellets. You use enough to soak up most or all of the liquids. I added the alfalfa pellets because the paper by itself is not absorbent enough. But I don't want to use too much, because it costs (a little) money and we want that carbon in there (the paper). At the feed store, I can buy a big (forty or fifty pound) bag of alfalfa pellets for about $15. One bag lasts quite a long time, many months. The shredded paper I get for free. I'm an eye doctor and I have to shred a bunch of stuff for patient privacy reasons. Why send it to a land fill when I can turn it into corn and tomatoes???
By the way, if any of the husbands are squeamish about this, I bet they didn't change their fair share of diapers. If true, use that as a big convincing club.
Everything you always wanted to know about how to use a bucket toilet.
For peeing, that's easy. You pee in the bucket. If it's a new bucket, I'll put a double handful of alfalfa pellets in the bottom to soak up the urine. For each additional peeing session, I sprinkle a small handful of rabbit pellets and a big handful of shredded paper.
For poo, that's easy. You poo in the bucket and then cover it up. I use a big handful of alfalfa pellets and two big handfuls of shredded paper, toilet paper goes right in there too.
I rarely see standing liquids, it's all absorbed by the pellets and paper, and/or covered up by the paper.
Put the five gallon bucket lid back on when you're done.
It is a happy coincidence that a standard five dollar toilet seat from Wal-Mart sits on the rim of a five gallon bucket in a pretty secure and stable fashion.
Now, for those who have to have a proper "looking" toilet, the book "Humanure" has a number of examples where people build these really beautiful finished boxes that just happen to hold a five gallon bucket. The front is generally hinged so it functions as a door. The front can even be roundish/curved to look sort of conventional. Some even build a "tank" on the back to hold the sawdust, or your favorite ingredients like shredded paper and rabbit pellets. The top of the box allows you to mount/screw a normal toilet seat on there. To prevent the escape of smells, you could add some discrete weather stripping that fills the gap between the toilet lid and the box.
When the bucket gets full, you take it out and dump it on top of the compost pile and rinse it out with hot water. I carry two buckets, one with the poo/pee and one half full of hot water for rinsing. The poo bucket will be a little smelly. With my "special blend" I think it smells more like a stable and not really like, ummmm shit. On some days, I even convince myself it has an earthy, almost pleasant smell. I freely admit to being biased and you should judge for yourself. I leave the rinsed bucket outside in the sun for a few days and the smell is poof-gone. UV is a wonderful antibacterial and smell killer in general. Then it goes back in the rotation. That's why you need 3 or 4 buckets all together.
By the time I dump the bucket on the compost pile, there is very little in the way of recognizable turds left.
It takes me almost a week to fill a bucket.
It is a very elegant system really. You want to use plenty enough carbon material (shredded paper or sawdust) for several reasons. It helps control the smell. It's absorbent (sawdust more than paper, alfalfa pellets more than sawdust) to soak up the liquids and help prevent contaminating the ground water with e. coli and other nasty bugs. The presence of sufficient carbon material also helps prevent losing our precious nitrogen, which is pretty much the same in a regular compost pile. Not enough "browns" or carbon rich material and you lose nitrogen to the atmosphere. Too much browns and you can end up with compost that can cause a temporary nitrogen deficiency when you put it in the soil. Any kind of happy medium works great in the long run, so don't worry about it overly much.
Just for clarity, alfalfa pellets are more of a nitrogen source, and not such a rich carbon source. But they are very absorbent, very inexpensive, are generally produced without fertilizer since alfalfa is a nitrogen fixer and widely available.
When I first set up the humanure enhanced compost pile, it heated up faster than any of my previous normal compost piles. We don't have a separate normal compost pile now. It all goes into one pile. Composts nice and hot, then ages for at least a year while we have started a new hot/active pile.
It's best to go read the whole book. Excellent documentation on the safety and efficacy of the method.
HTH,
troy
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Post by davidintx on Oct 29, 2009 17:32:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. I will get the book
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Post by Alan on Oct 29, 2009 21:32:27 GMT -5
Excellent posts Solarguy! Haven't used the alfalfa pellets yet, but it's a good idea!
The way I process mine is in 4 x 4 wooden bins I have dug a foot into the ground, lining the ground with gravel for drainage and filtration.
The inside of the boxes are first lined with straw and often times old bread from my friend who runs a day old bread store, this works as a sponge for soaking up things we don't want to escape.
My piles are made from kitchen scraps, chicken compost, goat manure, and humanure.
I let them age for about 6-8 months. They heat rapidly up to 150-170 degrees F sometimes!
In 6-8 months the compost is generally ready to be fed in thin layers to the worms.
Inside the worm bins the worms, soldier fly larve, and pill bugs help with sanitation.
Anything initially undigested is digested by the soldier fly and any risk of contaminents or heavy metals (there should't be much of any) is mitigated by the pill bugs which research have shown are excellent at cleaning up toxicity.
The 2-4 inch layers are digested by the worms in a matter of days.
They are then ready for use!
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Post by Walk on Jan 4, 2010 12:30:10 GMT -5
We've been using the 2 bucket system since 1982. We use rubber feed buckets and have 2 sets. When we empty a bucket, we leave it outside, upside down, to dry any residue. The pee gets dumped on our big compost pile (it has some toilet paper in it also). The poo bucket goes into an enclosed composting bin where it sits for a year. We have used 55 gal barrels for this in the past - a barrel will hold the annual output of poo from 2 people. The barrel needs some kind of ventilation or the compost is anaerobic and quite smelly. The bins supplied by our county for household composting work better than the barrels. After the poo has sat for a year, it goes onto the garden in the sweet corn part of the rotation. After the corn has come up it is put between the double rows. We used it on the orchard only once as putting rich compost on fruit trees will give them too much nitrogen and bring on aphids and watery new growth that doesn't harden off well.
The rubber buckets (about 1.5 gallon for pee and 2.5 gallon for poo so they are easy to handle) last about 15 years at least and are not harmed by freezing. The buckets are in an enclosed box side by side with seats over each. If you only have to pee, then you use the pee bucket. Solids and combo deposits go in the poo bucket. The enclosure has a fan that vents into the house's plumbing vent stack, with a switch on the wall so you can turn it on before opening the lid. I'd have to say that this smells less bad than a conventional toilet (except when you are carrying the buckets out - don't do this when you have guests ;<)) and there is no splashing involved either. We do not add anything to the buckets, but do layer spoiled hay in when the poo bucket is emptied into the compost bin.
We know several people who have purchased the expensive composting toilets and most have eventually gotten rid of them due to problems - problems which we have never had with the bucket system in 28 years. It seems that gardeners never have enough compost and I don't like to use the facilities away from home since it is truly a "waste" then instead of a "resource".
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Post by mgurbandweller on Feb 18, 2010 20:46:36 GMT -5
hello to all on this link. i am so glad to find it.
i have a pile that will be aged 1 year next month. However, I live in the northern midwest so a good chunk of my year is freezing temperatures. Because it is only me in the experiment, the pile is not large enough to have heated up (though I still need to buy a thermometer to test fully).
I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to test the finished material and what I should be testing for? I am actually not too worried about it but would like to have some kind of proof so that I can share the information with friends and try to encourage more people to do it. I am amazed at how easy it is (though I grew up on a farm and handled all kinds of manure frequently and never develped a phobia for excrement).
I am also a master gardener and am wondering if any other mg's on this site know if there's been any county extension research on this subject. I can't believe this isn't being embraced as a solution for water shortages and soil depletion issues around the world.
happy pooping!!!
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Post by nekrachael on Aug 28, 2010 19:38:34 GMT -5
I just started a compost pile that integrates humanure about a month ago. It's only me adding my waste to the pile, but it also gets the occasional dead chicken, the kitchen scraps that chickens don't eat, garden waste, etc. I'm layering with waste straw. So far, things look pretty good, but my compost bin is FULL! I thought it would shrink down kinds of fast, so now I'm wondering if I've done something wrong.
the compost bin is made of pallets, so it's roughly 4 feet cubed.I've been very thorough to keep the pile slightly dipped in the middle so that I can always easily cover my poo deposits. We're a family of five and in order to win my family over to this great idea, the ick factor must be mitigated and handled by me.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Rachael
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Post by raymondo on Aug 29, 2010 4:28:03 GMT -5
Don't know why I didn't look at this thread earlier. Some excellent posts. I've been thinking about using urine as a readily available nitrogen source because I grow a lot of leafy greens. I hadn't taken the next step but I see no reason not to.
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Post by Alan on Sept 1, 2010 22:47:05 GMT -5
I just started a compost pile that integrates humanure about a month ago. It's only me adding my waste to the pile, but it also gets the occasional dead chicken, the kitchen scraps that chickens don't eat, garden waste, etc. I'm layering with waste straw. So far, things look pretty good, but my compost bin is FULL! I thought it would shrink down kinds of fast, so now I'm wondering if I've done something wrong. the compost bin is made of pallets, so it's roughly 4 feet cubed.I've been very thorough to keep the pile slightly dipped in the middle so that I can always easily cover my poo deposits. We're a family of five and in order to win my family over to this great idea, the ick factor must be mitigated and handled by me. Any thoughts? Thanks! Rachael It should shrink down at a fairly constant rate, if it isn't your carbon to nitrogen ratio may be a little off and you might need to add either some more greens or some more browns. The other possibility is that it needs som air so that it does not become anearobic, setting up a secondary bin and flipping the material you have into it while using the first bin to collect new material will mitigate a lot of this. I have learned the best way that I can compost humanure is to add it to the turkey compost, it has an excellent ratio of c:n and reaches the temperatures need for sterilization quickly. Even in the winter time I can usually produce more than enough mass to keep all but the outside inch or two from freezing and it breaks down sufficiently in about 3 months, at which point I feed it to the worm heard. Hope this is of some help. Oh, almost forgot, are you watering adequately? Overwatering? Either one can cause problems. |
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Post by nekrachael on Sept 5, 2010 18:58:16 GMT -5
I think the N might be the problem. I'll focus on more green and get my cohorts to at least pee in the bucket. We live in Vermont and the compost is uncovered and the summer has been relatively dry, so I do not think water is the issue. Thank you!
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