Propigating Orchard and Nursery stock from seed...

[MikeH]

Apr 19, 2016 16:01:18 GMT -5 jocundi said:

I guess this is the right place to post this...

While I am reading on and off about propagating apples and with 3 grafts done so far, this morning while eating a store bought apple, I noticed that the seeds inside the apple were sprouting!

I planted them in some pots and watered. So excited!

Any suggestions on how to take care of them so they're a success?

Couple of questions first.

1. Do you know the variety of your store bought apple?
2. Where are you on the Canadian shield, ie, how far north? The town or lattitude/longitude would help.

Regards,
Mike

[jocundi]

It was a Gala apple from Thornbury, Ontario and I am near Huntsville.

Thanks,
Jenna

[MikeH]

Apr 21, 2016 20:27:53 GMT -5 jocundi said:

It was a Gala apple from Thornbury, Ontario and I am near Huntsville.

Thanks,
Jenna

OK, you're in hardiness zone 4a - www.plantmaps.com/interactive-ontario-plant-zone-hardiness-map.php while Thornbury is 5b to 6a because of the water. Gala's are recommended for much warmer areas - www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/aplrec.htm

Having said that, I would still try but I would protect the seedling for the first couple of winters by keeping it in a pot and potting it up to a large pot when you see roots at the drain holes. Don't wait too long after you see the roots because the roots will become pot bound and start to grow in circles following the pot wall. Bring the pot inside to a cold area in the fall after the first killing frost and the dormant season has begun. By cold area, I mean any area that doesn't go more than -5C. What you are trying to do is bulk the roots up so that the tree has a chance of surviving outside. When you plant it out, try and find a protected area especially from killing north winter winds.  Who knows that you won't get lucky and have an apple very similar to Gala that is very cold hardy. This is Gala's lineage - www.orangepippin.com/apples/gala.

If you are looking for apples that will survive in your area, here's a list - www.hardyfruittrees.ca/catalog/apple-trees. The are a bit expensive but you can probably find cheaper or even graft your own which is much cheaper if you can find scion wood - scionexchange.us/

Regards,
Mike

[jocundi]

Thanks Mike. I was hoping you'd say that there's still hope for me to try! And so I will. 7 strong looking seedlings so far.
Thank you for the links, hardy fruit trees I knew about, but scionexchange is new to me, lots of good advice there.
I will also try to grow pure Antonovka here, if it's doing super well I can always try and graft onto it later, but I think I am done with the idea of buying trees and hoping they would live (although I do have Norland, Lobo and Dolgo that are still around).

[prairiegarden]

There may be a scion wood sale or exchange in your area in the spring, Edmonton had their annual one a week or so ago. I didn't get to it, but the photos from last year suggest it's a well attended event,lots of offerings. It might be useful to talk to any botanical gardens or possibly arborists in the general area and see if there is a group near you, if nobody shows up in the link who's in your area. Getting woody stuff across borders can be iffy, it seems.

[MikeH]

Apr 27, 2016 23:50:03 GMT -5 prairiegarden said:

Getting woody stuff across borders can be iffy, it seems.

More than iffy. Against the law unless you have a phytosanitary certificate or the plant is on the white list. Check CFIA regulations closely - www.inspection.gc.ca/plants/eng/1299162629094/1299162708850. If via mail, it will be seized. If personally transport, it will be seized. In the second case, one wonders if your passport, licence place, SIN, driver's licence, etc, ie, whatever electronic ID you have might be flagged and you get searched every time you re-enter Canada. I would suggest too that it's extremely likely that this and other similar forums such as the one that I linked are watched by plant police.  If you are a business and get caught, there are fines.  It's not clear if individuals would be fined.

There's a reasonable selection of tree fruit varieties here - www.summerlandvarieties.com/budwood/catalogue. It's worth doing a bit of research to find varieties that are disease resistant - www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=disease%20resistant%20apple%20tree%20varieties and select on that basis for one's zone. That greatly reduces the disease part of pest/disease control in apples. The pest side is much easier controlled. Michael Phillips' The Holistic Orchard: Tree Fruits and Berries the Biological Way and The Apple Grower: A Guide for the Organic Orchardist are extremely useful in managing orchards with chemicals.

[haslamhulme]

Some really interesting stuff on here so far.I just thought I'd share my experiences so far on the "from seed" debate.

I,,being always up for an experiment have many seedlings,pear,Apple,Pluot,plum being the main ones but also apricot,cherry,carob,loquat,hazel,chaenomeles and a few peach,nectarine,walnut,medlar and sloe currently in the ground or fridge for stratification.

In 2012 I planted probably 100 Apple seedlings,mostly from Jazz,Smitten and (for my wife) pink lady,but also some ransoms.Out of those I probably have about half a dozen left today,all in pots outside.

The approach I took was to stratify in damp paper in the fridge,just laid them on kitchen towel,wet it,placed in a plastic tub in the bottom of the fridge and waited.Within about 6 weeks or so pretty much 100% germination,these were then all potted up,hardened off and then abandoned deliberately.They have since been battered by all the English Midlands can throw at them,hot summers,drought(deliberately not watering),waterloggong(just natural),freezes and snow and pests and diseases(not sprayed at all).

The half dozen I have aremostky about 2-2ft talk now,wide variation in vigour,spread and leaf appearance,no fruit yet but I'm patient.The main thing I know is that they are well suited plants for my climate,drought and wet tolerant and pest and disease free.If they turnout anything like the mother variety then great,if not I'll graft the best this amateur can.

The way i see it there are thousands of apple varieties(genetic individuals) out there.If you are going to add to that,your legacy should be first and foremost to better genetically for the future what came before.If I was to start again instead of starting with tasty apples,selecting for cultural traits,then researching for tasty apples I think id start with the toughest hardiest disease resistant cultivars,then select out for tasty apples,in theory this would save a step.

The above is also true for all my other seedlings.I have again about a dozen pears started in 2013 of Taylor's golden and Beurre Gold.It will be years and years before any come into fruit.If I had the tome(and I still may) grafting onto stocks or mature trees will speed this up,but at least by growing this way only the fittest will survive.

[jocundi]

What you are mentioning was going to be my next step. Find super hardy heritage trees around me and get seedlings from those.

I do have another question though. I found some juvenile apple growth where an old apple tree used to be. Does anybody have experience with when best to transplant or any other thoughts on how to get apple trees out of that?
What they have going for them is that someone long ago planted that tree so apples will likely not be such a wildcard as from seedlings, plus they're each about 1-2 meters tall.

[philagardener]

If that juvenile growth is sprouting from the old rootstock it may or may not be easy to move.

I recommend taking a shovel and root pruning around a few of the "seedlings" so they develop a denser branching root mass before you try to move them. If you do this now, you might try transplanting late this Fall. Natural seedlings often have extended root systems that make them otherwise challenging to transplant.

[reed]

I tried various methods over the years with apples and pears and nothing worked for me. Someone here on the forum, farther back in this thread said to just plant them straight out of the fruit in the fall. Last two falls I went to the big international market to the marked down section and got whatever there was that was about to rot. I planted the seeds in beds just barely covered and put a heavy board on top. Next spring before the frost and freezes stop, take the board off and poof, apples and pears all over the place. I'v been giving them away. *plant straight from the fruit, never let the seeds dry, I think that was my biggest mistake before.  

jocundi, are there any local markets or orchards where you might get apples that were grown in your climate? If so, just use those seeds. 

[jocundi]

Jul 16, 2016 6:32:07 GMT -5 philagardener said:

If that juvenile growth is sprouting from the old rootstock it may or may not be easy to move.

I recommend taking a shovel and root pruning around a few of the "seedlings" so they develop a denser branching root mass before you try to move them. If you do this now, you might try transplanting late this Fall. Natural seedlings often have extended root systems that make them otherwise challenging to transplant.

Thanks for this suggestion. I will definitely do that. But the most promising shoot I will keep in the same place, although it sounds like I should do root pruning as well so it becomes it's own tree.

[jocundi]

Jul 16, 2016 15:03:37 GMT -5 reed said:

I tried various methods over the years with apples and pears and nothing worked for me. Someone here on the forum, farther back in this thread said to just plant them straight out of the fruit in the fall. Last two falls I went to the big international market to the marked down section and got whatever there was that was about to rot. I planted the seeds in beds just barely covered and put a heavy board on top. Next spring before the frost and freezes stop, take the board off and poof, apples and pears all over the place. I'v been giving them away. *plant straight from the fruit, never let the seeds dry, I think that was my biggest mistake before.  

jocundi , are there any local markets or orchards where you might get apples that were grown in your climate? If so, just use those seeds. 

That sounds like an approach I would try! For now, the 3 seedlings I have are totally accidental (eating an apple and noticing that seeds have sprouts). Based on comments here in the thread, I will continue to "baby" them but they are not very likely to be super hardy.

What I would do is use your method with all the local heritage apples I can find on the ground. They are super hardy and tasty, mostly located in heritage parks and old school yards.

[coppice]

Read up on wintersowing or cold-stratification Jocundi. This is also true for other woody plants. Like pawpaw or prunus.

[prairiegardens]

I got some small quite sweet lemons from the store so tried to start seed from them and so now have about 10 baby lemon trees from that seed. I've no idea at all about how big they might grow but was hoping since the fruit was smaller than a " normal" lemon possibly they came from a dwarf tree? Any hope of that and any way to tell? It would be terrific if they turned out to be Meyer lemons, are the fruit from Meyers ever sold commercially?

[walt]

I've never tried lemons from seeds.
Many citrus will produce in 3 gallon pots.
Small fruit doesn't usually come from dwarf trees, but lemons might be an exception.  Some "lemons" are actually lemonquats, kumquat x lemon.  If that is what you have, it will be a smaller tree that is more cold tolerant that true lemons, and produce sooner.
Many citrus, including most (but not all) lemons, come true from seed.
Good luck