determinates or indet's

[kctomato]

sandbar said:

Is it possible to grow out a hybrid dwarf and obtain an OP dwarf with similar characteristics as the parent?

theorectically yes, practically not really

[Alan]

I think determinates definetly have their place. Particularly for far, far, north climates and definetly those that parethocarpic (sp?), in other words they don't need to be pollinated to produce fruit. The also definetly have their place in market gardens for early maturity and heavy concentrated set of fruit where getting a crop to market early makes the difference in breaking even or making money.

For some home gardeners, they may indeed be useless.

[flowerpower]

I thought that the point of determinates was to have the whole crop in a short period of time. So that you can process them for later use. Not so much for fresh eating.

[PapaVic]

canadamike said:

I expressed my frustration with (determinate tomatoes) on TVille and Craig LeHoullier wrote me that what I expressed was '' a testament to the uselessness of the determinates.'' I think he agreed!!

First off, without your litany of "expressed frustration," I can't really understand how it coincides with Craig's determination of a "uselessness of determinates."

If determinate growth habit were "useless," then surely it would never have been selected out when it appeared and then sophisticated and bred into hundreds of commercial tomato varieties both open pollinated and hybrid. It wouldn't be perpetuated in pure breeding lines if the breeders found it as "useless" as you and Craig have. But to each his or her own, I suppose.

Right now, I'm in Anguilla, and all the tomatoes I've seen here, except for the cherry types, are determinate, very short stake types, none over 3 feet tall, all grown Florida weave, under white plastic mulch with drip tape, completely disease free as far as I can determine, all heatset type hybrids, and completely loaded down with fruit. The locals don't seem to find their determinate habit as useless as Craig LeHoullier apparently does. And Perry, the one market gardener with whom I've become friendly, asked me to send him seeds for as many short stake determinate, heatset types as I can from the States.

PapaCaribe

[Jim]

Are you bringing home seed samples??

[Alan]

I edited my above post to show that to some home gardeners they may be useless.

Having said that, and not being a tomato gardener in the sense that I don't grow them to eat myself (other than in processed forms) I do know that for many home gardeners they are useful, particularly the paste types like Romas which people like to use for a heavy and consentraded crop for making sauces, salsas, and other products.

I do quite like a lot of determinates. Particularly yellow, orange, and red paste types for my own personal processing use. I also enjoy the smaller and productive heavy set of slicing determinates for use at market like I posted above. I guess this is really a home gardener type of discussion as opposed to a market gardener or tomato processor type of discussion since determinates as I have documented here definetly have their uses there and have found widespread acceptance with these type of growers.

It's all about what the home gardener enjoys and wants to grow and use space and labor on I suppose, of course climate, disease and pest tolerance, and the subjective quality of taste will all have bearing on these discussions.

[canadamike]

Bill, what frustrates me with them is that they end up being almost as big a plant as indeterminates. I sure have not grown as many varieties as you, be the ones I have, except the romas, which I am not crazy about, did end up to big to my taste.

[PapaVic]

Hmmm ... yes, Michel, I had that happen with Bradley. Maybe something related to sunlight hours or whatever. "Determinate" doesn't automatically mean "short stake" or super "concentrated set." It just means the number of leaf internoded between flower clusters and the eventual termination of shoot growth with an inflorescence.

The growth habit in terms of plant height seems more to do with individual variety as selected and subsequently inbred or back-bred, and then of course, whether you plant the genetically programmed "short stake" type out in full sun/12-hour exposure. Oh, and farther south seems to be a factor as well.

Sorry if I came off a bit abrupt earlier ... it's just that what I see in the "rest of the world" is that many folks can't enjoy the "luxury" of a garden full of singular examples of multiple varieties as in "hobby gardening" of the type that so many of the "weekend gardeners" who populate all these tomato forums grow. Yes, indeterminates may be tastier in general. Plants that produce five or ten tomatoes over a lifespan of 100 - 120 days may produce sweeter and more intensely flavored fruit. But most folks in the real world, especially the 3rd World, are growing for existence ... whether to eat directly or to sell ... and can't enjoy the luxury of wasting garden space on the "heirloom de jour."

Just another observation ...

Bill

[Jim]

In my microclimate determinates tend to be more controlled in their growth. They may outgrow a large cage but not overtake the garden like indeterminates. But my growing experience in limmited. I've grown very few of each. Growing up we grew lots of romas and plum types. One time we had a beefstake type that grew up and out of the cage, upand over a fence and down into the lawn. My dad kept running it over with the lawnmower but it would die. It was awesome.

[canadamike]

Bill:

The reason I feel somewhat frustrated is a very bad bursitis in my right shoulder. I would enjoy some respite by growing really short plants, at least for some of the garden. It is much easier for my shoulder when I work down instead of horizontaly or up with my arm.

Cause when it hurts, it really hurts. It is more than pain, it is suffering.
9 months of physiotherapy ( it was supposed to be 2 weeks ) did nothing, the therapist was afraid my shoulder could jam, so I got a cortisone shot.

It is better now, but I still have to be cautious. Hence this desire of smaller determinates. Otherwise, I would be proud to see big plants in the same fashion any gardener is happy to see any big healthy plant grow.

But don't worry, your '' coming on strong'' was interpreted as real love for tomatoes, and we only need more of that love, not less for sure...

Michel

[jaliranchr]

An OP det that has done well for me for several years now. Wouldn't be without it. Not sweet like that mumble hybrid cherry, but tangy and flavorful.

www.seedsofchange.com/garden_center/product_details.asp?item_no=S16608

[Jim]

thanks for the reccomendation.

[canadamike]

Thanks joliranchr.

[Alan]

Thanks for the reccomendation Jali, I will now be giving this one a try in the greenhouses and in the field for comparison.

[jaliranchr]

Here's Skorospelka now that it is producing. Probably 20 fruits on each determinate plant. Nice tart flavor. I love this mater!