Winter questions~planning

[peapod]

Ok here it comes~ this is a question. I would like to have any ideas on what you all do for planning your farming or gardening and rotation of the annuals etc.

Every year I have this wonderful plan and it never turns out the way, I either write it down or visualize it.

So what do you do?

Some say that squash need to be rotated on a 3-5 yr cycle(some don't agree at all with that philosophy). Do Tomatoes need to be rotated annually, and beans will fix nitrogen if left in the ground... Still waiting for that to happen and what about root veggies?


Tell all or a little I want to be more educated in what works for you or doesn't. And maybe it will work for me too.

I don't rotate my maters I mulch heavily in the fall along with horse manure and I have been blessed with great crops. Do or would it be advisable to change this?

I met a squash farmer this summer in Southeastern MN and he, in 20 yrs, has never rotated his 3.5 acre squash patch and has a bumper crop every year without the use of chemicals to control pests. Of course I was relentless with my questions:)

But then again I have gads of pests due to location and the big ag farmer who farms around my property and sprays every known petro-chem for plants and bugs.

[ottawagardener]

First off: I like to call our property the 'ant refugee camp,' because our neighbours have been known to poison their populations so they all have moved in to our safe organic hideaway.

As for rotation, I wrote a whole blog post on exploring this question (if you are bored: veggiepatchreimagined.blogspot.com/2009/03/rotation-rotation-rotation-rules-and.html) and my conclusions were that:

Rotation for control of pests and diseases in very small plots is potentially overly hopeful. Better to rotate to a different side of your yard all together or to the other side of a natural barrier if you have one (like your house or a hedge / tall planting). Rotation on a large farm that practices minimal tillage such as leaving behind plant residue of a monocrop makes lots of sense if they have large space to work with.

Also, many diseases remain in the soil longer than the classically quoted 3-4 years.

Rotation to contribute to soil health as in balanced 'nutrients,' good tilth etc... is more compelling in the small plot as different root systems not only take advantage of soil nutrients at different depths etc... but also could help break up the soil such as in tap roots, or fix nitrogen into the soil such as legumes. Also different plant families can require different amounts of nutrients which might be depleted if grown in the same spot year after year. This might be offset by the addition of soil ammendments such as compost or manure.

A mixed planting makes quite a bit of sense as breaking up block plantings may mean slower spread of diseases and pests. It may even help to confuse pests to the exact location of their favourite snack. Of course, a truely mixed up planting might not be convenient for harvesting, pollination or making sure your sun loving plants aren't shaded. I know some people cultivate wild strips around their garden around their block planted beds.

I have noticed that rotating my crops doesn't stop pests from finding them especially if they are the winged types. The best defence against these for me has been trap crops and excluding them from the plant by row covers etc... When it comes to disease, moving the plant to a completely new area of the yard helps as does breaking up the planting so I have, for example, only 2-3 cabbages growing in a group in each spot. A couple years ago, head rot walked down my 20 foot row of cabbage but the small planting I did on the other side of the yard was unaffected. I won't replant that area again with cabbage for quite some time. Of course, you can try solarizing your soil if you do get a disease but I worry about the health of the soil ecosystem when you do this.

As for me, I am very careful with solanums, vines and brassicas not that I have ever had any serious disease with them - let's just call it organic gardening superstition. With other crops, I rotate if I have a problem with them.

I do think that we tend to judge whether or not something works a bit differently than big agri. For us, it's what stops the problem, but they work on increases and decreases in yeild so a 15% reduction in pest damage might be worthwhile for a big agri farmer but not noticeable by a small grower. Then again, it depends on the level of damage to begin with. (I'm babbling now, I know).

You know, I remember reading about the legume plants that in order to incorporate the nitrogen back into the soil, you have to cut them down (leaving the roots where they were) while they are still young, though I can't remember if it is actually before they flower or not. Anyone?

You know I do find the whole rotation thing a real headache especially while I'm planning to fill my gardens with spring / summer / fall crops and interplanting perennials, leaving spots for self sowers and planning for seed beds. I'm looking forward to other people's responses!

Right, I'll stop now.

[peapod]

Ottawa,
you are awesome. I read every word and not once did I think you were babbling.

I have such a squash borer problem and I have tried, like you suggested, planting in an altogether new area of the yard(farm) and to my demise those nasty bugs still find and invade. I spoke with some organic farmers late this summer and they plant Giant Marigolds by the "gazillions" is what she said. She also said that the odor of the Marigolds mask the scent of the wonderful blossoms of squash and she has been unaffected for over 20 years.

Guess what I am doing. Planting as many Marigolds as I can possibly find buy or trade for this coming year. I have planted other "smelly" flowers amongst the squash but not by the
"gazillions". I will try it of course and then I will hope that Mr. Big Agri plants soy beans this coming year. Corn is the worst in attracting the bugs to my little( by comparison) plot of farm.

Any other takers. Please.

[ottawagardener]

Have you tried C. Moschata's like butternut? I hear they are resistant as they have solid stems. So far, I haven't been acquainted with Mr. Squash Borer though Cucumber Beetle has been round my parts (she says cursing).

[Darth Slater]

Dec 7, 2009 22:26:55 GMT -5 peapod said:

Ottawa,
you are awesome. I read every word and not once did I think you were babbling.

I have such a squash borer problem and I have tried, like you suggested, planting in an altogether new area of the yard(farm) and to my demise those nasty bugs still find and invade. I spoke with some organic farmers late this summer and they plant Giant Marigolds by the "gazillions" is what she said. She also said that the odor of the Marigolds mask the scent of the wonderful blossoms of squash and she has been unaffected for over 20 years.

Guess what I am doing. Planting as many Marigolds as I can possibly find buy or trade for this coming year. I have planted other "smelly" flowers amongst the squash but not by the
"gazillions". I will try it of course and then I will hope that Mr. Big Agri plants soy beans this coming year. Corn is the worst in attracting the bugs to my little( by comparison) plot of farm.

Any other takers. Please.

ahhh you guys dont have it to bad ,come to Slaters Black fly and mosquito farm I call them {Mig skeetos} just like the russian jet some get so big you can see the numbers on em when they fly by!! ;D

[canadamike]

If you are adding compost like crazy, crops rotation is a bit overblown. I never rotated my maters and they love it, Martin has been growing potatoes in the small plot for 25 years. It is VERY different in a commercial setting, where compost and green manures and manures and so on are added at a minimal amount compared to a smaller plot.

Rotation is a lot about soil borne diseases and also about pests and insect pupating in the ground whe the host crops where, but in this case it is less successful. There is a lot to be said for rotations against thediseases though, and larger operations are by far much more sensitive to them, it always end up being a number's game after all.

When my garden was under an acre, there was such plant companionship and diversity involved that ''pure'' crop rotation was a very very abstract concept. Crop rotation is ''change over time'' while companionship is change ''right here right now''.

IT ALWAYS ENDS UP TO BE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

Scale is of the essence here, as it is scale that might or might not transform a patch into a disease heaven more than anything else. Compost is a fantastic buffer for diseases and pests.

[johno]

I pretty much agree with Ottowa. Rotation is better for the soil than the plants on a small scale, though of course good soil benefits plants. Rotation has its best effects on a grand scale of rotating fields when you're talking about pest and disease control. I have a two acre yard and a couple more in a field next to it that I use (parts of), and other than balancing out nutrients in the beds, there's no real advantage to rotation. But that's a pretty good reason in itself... And definitely try it if there's a problem - it can't hurt.

I say as long as your tomatoes are doing well, keep up the same routine. You are taking care of the soil just fine. Really, unless there's a serious deficiency of some sort to begin with, regular applications of straw and manure ought to keep the soil in shape for growing most vegetables.

Now, as for those 'giant marigolds' you mentioned... you did get seeds, right? The particular variety that squash farmer grows may be key. Get marigold seeds from them.

(You now have marigold seeds on the way with the rest of that very tardy package. It's a mix that's been evolving here for many years.)

[canadamike]

Darth, not that I want to ruin your day, but Ottawa and I live where the numbers on them are so big you cannot even read them unless you walk back half a mile

I killed one mosquito once and we made 10 pies out of it for the chickens , and it was only the tenderloin;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No kidding my friend, Ottawa is more in the city, but we, too , are in mosquito and black flies heaven.

[johno]

I started typing before mike and the others posted... Same basic ideas.

[johno]

Moschatas generally have a long season, but I'm sending some for you to try.

[flowerpower]

Tall marigolds are African Marigolds (Tagetes Erecta). You can get them in any dollar store very cheap. Usually they are called "Crackerjack Mix" on the cheap ones.

[ottawagardener]

Oh yeah Darth, it's why very few of us Canadians need to grow feed for our feathered friends and if they ever run in short supply (not that they ever would), we can start shooting down deer fly and horse fly to add to the mix.

Yup, us Eastern Ontarians are welt ridden folk

[massachusett4hills]

If any one is having trouble with vine borer on pumpkins ?......
there is a variety with some resistance called......
OLD FASHIONED TENNESSEE VINING PUMPKIN ...
(C. MOSCHATA)
Late maturing variety I think ?............

[plantsnobin]

I hate the heat and humidity we have here, and once thought that Michigan would be the place to be, until a friend told tales of the biting insects there. My husband watches hunting shows, and you can see swarms of bugs flying in the faces of the hunters. They aren't even trying to swat them away, I guess you just learn to live with them. But it is enough to keep me away.

[klorentz]

Cucumber beatles the scourge of the garden.Right up there with Japanese beetles,SVB,Squash bugs,Gophers,Moles and ground squirrels and aphids.


Kevin