Horn Manure

[Alan]

Bio-Dynamic number 500

Ok, I admit, I've been reading about bio-dynamic, trying to understand it really, I get a lot of new age type ideals out of it, that's about it really....

Don't get me wrong, I have a penchant for ritual and even flowery language from time to time, but I try to find a scientific basis for all that I do work on and elaborate on.


Here is the thing, does horn manure work? Does the process itself effect the finished compost in a way that is so much better or otherwise unattainable via conventional composting.

I mean, I understand the idea of cold composting, and it is nutrient wise very much more adventageous than hot composting, I also understand the idea of stressing the digesting microbes with cold weather to slow the process and the change and the idea of absorbing nutrients from the horn as well as the membrane inside the horn feeding the microbes, but is there any scientific evidence that this method is better than any other?

[paquebot]

Looks like snake oil to me. Only stirred in certain patterns and applied only according to phases of the moon hint more of the supernatural than scientific fact.

www.biodynamics.in/BD500.htm

Martin

[Alan]

I agree Martin and (no offense to anyone here) I wrote all of that stuff off when reading about, instead trying to focus on weather or not their may be more to it than just magic, in terms of, what if any change does the manure undergo (scientifically) during the winter period when buried in a cow horn.

[mnjrutherford]

I'm with Martin. Hocus pocus can make one lose focus. By the by, I'm thinking we are going to have some interesting results with the terra preta come March. It'll be a year old. I thing THAT will be a much more interesting and useful line of experimentation.

[PatrickW]

It's worth mention bio-dynamic has a really strong following here in Europe, and many people really believe in it. Bio-dynamic food is available in shops here, and most people agree it tastes better.

I don't remember where I read it, but my favorite assessment of it was along these lines. Bio-dynamic farming takes a lot of additional care and time that traditional farming doesn't. Any time anyone spends extra time and takes extra care producing food, it inevitably tastes better. There's probably not a lot more behind it than that, but if what you're looking for is better tasting food, bio-dynamic may be the way to go...

[paquebot]

If you look at the claims and then the amount used, it becomes more ridiculous than the hour of stirring in one direction followed by an hour the other way. 25 grams in 13 liters of water per acre. That's less than an ounce in about 3½ gallons of water. It would have to be applied as a fog barely visible to the human eye.

Martin

[mjc]

Bio-dynamic = homeopathic gardening, with a touch of alchemy thrown in, for good measure.

Similar claims are made in both. And going by the dilutions that are recommended, you will quickly discover that, because all the water on the Earth has probably touched everything over the past 4.5 billion years, rainwater has a higher 'concentration' of the 'desired' components than the dilutions you've just spent a very long time preparing.

There has to be a some of 'if it isn't working for you, then you aren't doing it right' among its supporters, because, anything with such a long, complicated ritualistic method to it is very prone to that sort of thinking.

The good thing about it, though, stripping it of the 'ritual' is the fact that it gets the practitioner deeply involved in caring for his plants/farm without actually making it seem like 'work'...it becomes a labor of love/devotion as opposed to a task that needs to be done...a job.

[nuts]

I know homeopathic medicals are widely used and prooved to work.
But there is no scientific explanation for it.
I understandpeople are sceptical,without scientific explanation.

But it's a wrong idea to think that things that can't be explained scientically can't exist.This can be prooved scientifally. ;D ;D ;D ;D

cheers,
nuts

[Alan]

I agree about it's application being way "out there" as well. When I was looking at it I was trying to figure out the "chemistry" of what if any real change the manure would undergo, whereby a traditional fertilizer tea could be produced in a much more conservative manner than mentioned in the Bio-Diverse methods.

I do think if it is similar to the process that is undergone via normal cold composting with some added benefit in regards to the micro-biology that is involved with the aging in the cow horn that if applied in a more realistic amount then there might indeed be a real benefit to going through the trouble of stuffing a cow horn with cow crap, as far as stirring for an hour and in a method, nope, not gonna happen, I'll just stick with the fish tank aerator.

I do agree though that the method probably does say a lot more about how well those involved in Bio-Intensive production probably pay more attention than your average gardener/farmer.

JO, keep us updated on the terra pretta.

I made some small beds this past spring, there was a difference, but this terra pretta was charged simply with urine.

Right now I am making some large batches which are being charged with rabbit manure, worm castings, urine, cow manure, goat manure, and more, my method is a bit faster than traditionally used, but burning wet wood that is still green in a stove under slow burning conditions is just a bit more feasable for me and should ideally work the same in a mixture since often it produces quite large chunks of charcoal which I can later break into smaller pieces.

[mnjrutherford]

Ya know, my kids used to whip it out and drain the ol' lizard where ever they happened to be. UNTIL I wanted them to pee on the terra preta and NOW they won't pee outside! These kids slay me!

Anyhow, I'll definitely be keeping you posted. The green wood, slow heat, chunks, is really to sophisticated for our reality. However, I do believe that we are gonna end up with something quite usable. We are currently sticking with plan A which is to cook it a year. Still don't know if we can build a second pit, this will be crucial. The first pit will be allowed to cool, cover with a tarp, let it mellow for 6 months to a year. Mix with ? topsoil from the nursery maybe? Test first THEN mix. Somethings to think about as you can see.

[grunt]

Patrick:

Any time anyone spends extra time and takes extra care producing food, it inevitably tastes better.

Alan:

I do agree though that the method probably does say a lot more about how well those involved in Bio-Intensive production probably pay more attention than your average gardener/farmer.

And I think that's all there really is to it.

[nuts]

In my young years I took part in some meetings on biodynamics.
When it came to questions like: why a cowhorn and not for exemple a goathorn?,the answer was that you had to be initiated,and that's possible only for few persons.Anyway this kind of questions were undesired.

Allthough many points in the biodynamics were appealing,but in my eyes it was to much like a secte,so I left.

That said,when I stir my coffee I do as many turns clockwise as counterclockwise,not that I notice any difference in taste,but you never know.LOL

on the other hand I think that there are more ways for progress than pure scientific.
A good exemple is plant breeding.I don't think the approach of the incas and other old civilisations can be considered as 'scientific',but nevertheless the progress from wild types to the improved plants that we inherited,is much bigger than the progress from those old varieties to modern varieties.

Science can be a usefull tool to come to progress,but in some ways science is like a secte.There are questions you can't pose.
Like 'why does the scientific approach lead us to so many disasters?'
or so

just a few thoughts

cheers,
nuts

[nuts]

Dec 16, 2009 18:27:54 GMT -5 Alan said:

but burning wet wood that is still green in a stove under slow burning conditions is just a bit more feasable for me and should ideally work the same in a mixture since often it produces quite large chunks of charcoal which I can later break into smaller pieces.

Alan,this is a quit bad method.Loads of creosote will accumulate in the chimney and the stove,creosote +condensation will eventually cause your stove to rot,the chimney can get blocked,and you have a big risc of chimneyfire.
Burn dry wood and burn it hot.to avoid this problems.

If you want to make charcoal,you can close the inlet of you your stove when the wood finished making flames(this works only when your stove is very airtight.).

A more efficient way is making a big pile covered with dirt or in a closed barrel(big enough).But I think you need some experience to do it right.
You start with a big inlet and an outlet and start a fire inside the pile or barrel.
When it's hot enough(you will know by experience) you close the inlet and the wood will continue to smoke and turn into charcoal without any oxygene.
The process will take some days.Once I saw I guy doing this (it was a dirt covered pile with over 1000 kg wood.He was sleeping beside the pile to keep an eye on it.By the color of the smoke you know it's finished.
There are more sophisticated methods where you burn the exhaust gases(the smoke) to heat a barrel.This is cleaner too.
If you do a google search for charcoal making you'll find a lot of information

Here in France you can buy charcoal in any supermarked.Rather in summer,when people are doing lots of 'barbecue'.Probably you can get it in the usa too,I guess,or maybe americans don't have barbecues in summer?
Depends on the amounts you need,but compared to the trouble you will have by burning wet wood slowly in your stove it won't be expensive.

cheers,
nuts

[Alan]

Dec 17, 2009 12:50:53 GMT -5 @nuts said:

Dec 16, 2009 18:27:54 GMT -5 Alan said:

but burning wet wood that is still green in a stove under slow burning conditions is just a bit more feasable for me and should ideally work the same in a mixture since often it produces quite large chunks of charcoal which I can later break into smaller pieces.

Alan,this is a quit bad method.Loads of creosote will accumulate in the chimney and the stove,creosote +condensation will eventually cause your stove to rot,the chimney can get blocked,and you have a big risc of chimneyfire.
Burn dry wood and burn it hot.to avoid this problems.

If you want to make charcoal,you can close the inlet of you your stove when the wood finished making flames(this works only when your stove is very airtight.).

A more efficient way is making a big pile covered with dirt or in a closed barrel(big enough).But I think you need some experience to do it right.
You start with a big inlet and an outlet and start a fire inside the pile or barrel.
When it's hot enough(you will know by experience) you close the inlet and the wood will continue to smoke and turn into charcoal without any oxygene.
The process will take some days.Once I saw I guy doing this (it was a dirt covered pile with over 1000 kg wood.He was sleeping beside the pile to keep an eye on it.By the color of the smoke you know it's finished.
There are more sophisticated methods where you burn the exhaust gases(the smoke) to heat a barrel.This is cleaner too.
If you do a google search for charcoal making you'll find a lot of information

Here in France you can buy charcoal in any supermarked.Rather in summer,when people are doing lots of 'barbecue'.Probably you can get it in the usa too,I guess,or maybe americans don't have barbecues in summer?
Depends on the amounts you need,but compared to the trouble you will have by burning wet wood slowly in your stove it won't be expensive.

cheers,
nuts

Howdy nuts,

I should have pointed out a couple of things about my methods and situation.

The stoves are located in the greenhouses with high humidity meaning that every year the inside pipes must be replaced due to the humidity in the air, the outside pipe is cleaned several times a year and kept extremely clean.

I do use the method you mentioned above for making charcoal after the flame is out, by reducing airflow, my stoves are incredibly well constructed and very air tight.

The green/wet wood thing happens only ocassionally and I mentioned it only because when this does happen I do get more charcoal from the burn. In the case of the "green" wood it should be pointed out that this wood is already 3-4 months old and kept outside so it is "aged" a bit, there is no stopping it being a bit wet being stored outside in an area too large to cover with a tarp completely.

Either way, the charcoal is only a byproduct of my heating of the greenhouses and I definitely don't just burn to make charcoal and I do keep everything clean my friend.

Thanks for the concern though, it is appreciated to know that I have friends that do care.

[rockguy]

I have never heard of horn manure. Just another loop I'm out of, lol. I don't think I need any tho. I'm still trying to convince my neighbor that the gravity of the moon is the same on a night when it's full or a week later.....