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Post by sandbar on Nov 21, 2008 23:56:47 GMT -5
Not sure if this is the right forum section or not ... I have been laying my plastic mulch by hand for the past few years. Obviously, it is maddeningly labor intensive and I don't have the time to lay as much as I want. I need to use it for weed suppression and heat for those heat loving crops. Does anyone have any experience with platic mulch layers that mount to your tractor's 3 point hitch? I've looked at both those that wrap a raised bed or lay flat beds. Raised beds are not a good idea for me since I don't have irrigation ability in all the gardens. I have layed flat beds over the past several years and haven't had a problem with low moisture levels under the plastic. Thoughts? Advice? Ramblings?  |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 22, 2008 1:18:04 GMT -5
I haven't use the machine myself, but I really do not get the point of your irriation argument in raised bed .To me it is a non argument. Even in raised beds percolation and moisture from condensation, along with the watering from the small opening for the stem( which acts as a channel for a lot of rain water) should be enough. My beds are very raised ( done by hand like you).
Anyway, even flat beds are raised to a certain extent. It is all about the amount of surface, if I can say so. And depending on the orientation of the beds towards the sun, raised beds will heat up more in the beginning, before they are covered ( if they have to be, otherwise they'll do it all the time) as the sun will hit more directly. A 5% slope is akin to a gain of 1 to 2 zones according to Elliot Coleman, who tends to know a thing or two...
This is my 2 cents on it. With the previous two ones, you now how me 4 cents. ;D
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Post by grunt on Nov 22, 2008 4:36:59 GMT -5
Sandbar: I agree with Michel. Even flat beds with a bit of a trench around them give you most of the advantages of raised beds. Do you have anything available to you thaat you could use for mulch in place of the plastic? Hay, straw, leaves, grass clippings, or even sawdust or bark (if you can make up for the nitrogen they steal in breaking own) will all give you the moisture retention and weed suppression of plastic, with the bonus of building your soil at the same time. Can't tell that I have a bias in this can you? ;D
Cheers
Dan
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Post by plantsnobin on Nov 22, 2008 9:54:08 GMT -5
Sorry, no helpful advice from me, because I also don't advocate plastic. Except maybe the biodegradable stuff made from corn byproducts. High Mowing seeds has it, 4'x100' for $33, 4'x 600' roll for $145 or 4'x1000' roll for $205. I have used black plastic under my sales area, and when I pulled it up it is just awful to see the 'soil' under there. Using the things suggested by grunt will do wonders for your soil structure, and you can eventually get those weeds under control. Maybe you could try low tunnels for those crops that need extra early heat?
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Post by PatrickW on Nov 22, 2008 10:48:28 GMT -5
I agree the things mentioned by grunt are better, but cost is usually the issue for me. I use black plastic, because it's much cheaper.
The kind of plastic I use is 'landscape cloth' and it doesn't kill the soil like other plastics do. It only blocks the sun, but lets air and water through. It leaves the ground in pretty good shape, just free of weeds. The only problem I have with it when it gets old and wears out, plastic 'strings' come lose from it and sometimes find their way all over the garden.
Using industrial corn products has it's own environmental problems too...
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Post by sandbar on Nov 22, 2008 23:08:24 GMT -5
Thanks for everyone's input. I would prefer to not use plastic, but I need it as a time saver. Mulching a half acre of garden with straw (which I currently do between rows of plastic) would be very expensive and enormously time-consuming (tried that this year ... only got about a third of it done). If I was only growing a small patch (say 50' x 100'), I'd definitely use an organic mulch like straw or spoiled hay. But, I'm growing for market and that just isn't a feasible answer for me. Mike, is that 4 cents American or Canadian? |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 23, 2008 0:37:12 GMT -5
Your choice my friend. But it will cost you a couple of bucks only to make change in canadian...Bah! Forget it. Just pay my mortgage ;D
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Post by ohiorganic on Nov 23, 2008 6:04:19 GMT -5
We use landscape fabric-last 10+ years, controls weeds far better than thin plastic mulches and over it's life a lot cheaper. We lay it out by hand since the pieces are all cut to 50' lengths. Around 200 beds get this mulch on them in a season
I have been reading about the biodegradible mulches and all of them last about 2, maybe 3 months and than they are done. Okay for short crops but won't work for things like tomatoes. The market growers I know who have used this do not like it.
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Post by sandbar on Nov 23, 2008 22:12:46 GMT -5
Hey OG, I have a series of questions for you ... Do you pull up the landscape fabric at the end of each growing season and put it back down next year? Are you doing raised beds? Does the fabric do a good job with moisture retention? I was thinking that with it's open weave it would allow the beds to dry out faster than plastic. How long does your fabric last? I have a roll of landscape fabric that I bought and never used. I think it's a 6' width. |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 23, 2008 22:29:18 GMT -5
My friends running a CSA used it this year ( the bio-deradable mulch) and it lasted much longer, but with 9 sunny days in a whole summer UV rays were not around much for the degradation. I personnaly did not like it. Did not use it per sayin my garden but I was there often. I did not like the texture and working with it. And we have an excellent, well working recycling program here. With all the corn used to make it, I do not see the real advantage. They don't exactly row it like we do here....
Sandbar, I have used landscape fabric and it works quite fine too. I just don't know about its soil heating capacities in the spring, but Ohio can tell you about it. I never laid it early like black plastic. Just didn't happen, not out of any intellectual consideration.
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Post by canadamike on Nov 23, 2008 23:58:52 GMT -5
Did you like the taste of the giraffe abricot Sanbar? I do not remember properly but I am under the impression somebody said it was quite good for a winter keeper. Grungy maybe?
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Post by PatrickW on Nov 24, 2008 11:18:16 GMT -5
I think landscape fabric's moisture retention depends on your rainfall and irrigation. Normal plastic won't let water pass through it, and will absorb the heat of the sun. It will eventually drive the moisture out from under it, unless more comes in from the sides.
Landscape fabric will breath and give off some moisture, but also helps retain some moisture. It will let rain and irrigation pass through however.
As far as heating the soil, I don't have enough experience with ordinary plastic to compare it, but it does help with warming the soil.
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 24, 2008 12:14:56 GMT -5
Clear plastic according to Ken Allan's sweet potato book (fantastic book btw) cites research that states that clear plastic is better for soil warming than black in northern climes though there is no comparison made with landscaping fabric (that I recall) though as Patrick said it is breathable and for the most part, black in colour.
For borderline heat loving crops, clear plastic has meant the difference between a crop and nothing. I have done some trials with eggplants in regular soil and mulched soil. To add to what Patrick pointed out about moisture stress, I seal the opening where the plants are laid with sand and contour the bed so that the water from rain is funneled toward the plants. I have not noticed any moisture stress with my principally rain watered crops (we get good rainfall often in summer) grown this way which have included: tomato, eggplant, peppers (hot and sweet) and sweet potato.
I have also read that clear plastic is used to bake the soil to kill off diseases but my soil did not seem sterile though of course there are those planting breathing holes. In fact, as others complained, I had weed growth underneath the plastic. Mostly, I just ignored these (people lift the plastic and clear them out on occasion) and when I removed the plastic in the fall, they seemed healthy but prostrate.
Anyhow, my experience is that clear plastic is effective at heating the soil, proper contouring reduces moisture stress, and it does not act to reduce weeds much.
I have also used lanscaping fabric and it worked well in other situations but it tears easily.
Just my two cents.
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Post by ohiorganic on Nov 27, 2008 7:23:55 GMT -5
Ottawa, I think we are talking about two different landscape fabrics. The stuff I use does not tear easily at all as it is like a plastic burlap. Are you thinking of the black reemay stuff that would not last more than a season?
Sandbar's Questions:
Do you pull up the landscape fabric at the end of each growing season and put it back down next year?
Yes
Are you doing raised beds?
No
Does the fabric do a good job with moisture retention? I was thinking that with it's open weave it would allow the beds to dry out faster than plastic.
Yes it does. The beds dry out perhaps a bit more slowly with Landscape fabric than plastic mulch
How long does your fabric last?
6+ years.
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Post by PatrickW on Nov 27, 2008 15:02:26 GMT -5
The landscape fabric I use is also like plastic burlap, and virtually impossible to tear.
Around here there are two different grades available, a cheaper one with orange markings and a more expensive one with green markings. There's a huge difference in how long they would each last, and I would be surprised if anyone were able to make the cheaper one last more than 3-4 years. The cheaper one is also harder to work with, harder to cut and it falls apart easier.
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