noir
gopher
Posts: 9
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Post by noir on Jan 18, 2009 6:57:56 GMT -5
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Post by grungy on Jan 18, 2009 7:16:43 GMT -5
Merci, Noir
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Post by cff on Jan 18, 2009 12:54:06 GMT -5
noir I'm not trying to build an argument for or against the Warré Hive. I'm sure its a popular method in France but here in the US the most popular method is the Standard Langstroth hive. I don't sale honey - I produce and sale bees (starter hives) for customers who want to produce and sale honey or provide pollination to crops. I would say 99% of my customers are looking for bees started in a standard Langstroth hive - so I provide what the market demands. I also keep bees organically I've been successful so far with the use of quality bee genetics and natural cell size wax (4.9 mm) that is available commercially. I produce my own queens from breeders that have been subjected to and surviving Varroa for many years without the used of chemicals so just like you I'm very interested in keeping the wax clean by avoiding the use of chemicals. There are drawbacks to the Warré Hive for US beekeepers. For example as woodchuck pointed out the US has laws that forbid the used of hives without modern movable frame (this is a reference to using only Langstroth type hives) This isn't a major issue for the hobbyist - (but) if I wanted to apply the bees to a pollination contract I would have to submit the bees to state inspection to move them into another state. Some states such as California have very strict laws about bees coming in from other states for pollination. I do believe that bees are more productive on draw comb so if the goal is honey sales I would rather use the most productive method. If your using small frames in the Warré Hive it is more like a small Langstroth type hive - the same can be accomplished by using supers for brood chambers - the frames are smaller and the weight of the hive reduced. Several (elements) or units can be used to create split hives just like in the Warré Hive or I can remove two or three frames of brood / honey - pollen from the unit to start a new hive -in doing this I am continually replacing the wax in the mother hive. Beekeeping is sometimes cultural - and sometimes dependent on local laws but its always a great hobby no matter the method. Hi, you're right Johno, the translated is mesh..i forget it  For the wood, i used hot lin oil and an other organic lazure. (with oil, and agrumes extracts) Don't forget Varroa. The way you use a warré can seriously fight varroa (and others ) without those bad chemical products. i grow organic so i keep bees in an organic way too. In warré every two years, wax is renew. that's not the case in others hives. it's for me the best method to maintain a good sanitary state, even if i harvest only a bit less. True, but you can use, frames as well in Warré.(or armed barettes, with metal wire, bees will construct on that structure) how that can be an argument against Warré Hive? i don't understand it. You mean on a commercial way to develop Warré hives?... advantages: 1 - sanitary 2- more "natural"..respect and no pesticides etc.. 2-size (easy to move from a place to an other) 3- you don't need extractors etc... 4- from three elements you can quickly create two or three hives. (You take one element and put it on a floor..quite simple) 5-seems to start faster in our country. you can drive your hive as you want, but when you saw diseases and bees problems, we had to keep an eye on the respectfull way. |
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noir
gopher
Posts: 9
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Post by noir on Jan 18, 2009 13:18:58 GMT -5
Hi Cff, In France the standard hive isn't Warré, it's Dadant Blatt 10 frames (sometimes 12). we are few actually to use Warré but, with varroa and organic mind, it's starting to develop again. It's hard to find Warré in bee-shop, but since end of 2008 you can in two shops. Most of the customers are also looking for the classic Dadant hive. For me production isn't the first, quality is better. for our family needs sufficiency is easy to get. last year i harvested with a good firend 96 Kg on two hives (Dadant). No offense Woodchuck, but are you sure about that US law? i met some US beekeepers on an other board and most of them are using KTBH. so they aren't with that law. sure, it's a great hobby. when you put your finger in, you can't stop.  |
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Post by pugs on Jan 18, 2009 14:49:32 GMT -5
A few years ago, on a beekeeping board, one of the posters mentioned having a Florida bee inspector look at his Top Bar hives. Since the frames were movable and removable, they past the inspection requirement. In fact the inspector was impressed with the hives. If I remember correctly, the bee keeper had over 300 hives.
I know here in Oregon, the bee inspectors were done away with several years ago in budget cuts. Also, you only have to register your hives if you have more than 4. The registation is mainly for crop duster to know where the hives are kept.
Pugs
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Post by cff on Jan 18, 2009 15:09:42 GMT -5
I'm seeing a lot more attention to organics in beekeeping over the past few years and its a welcome sight. There are many who believe chemical beekeeping is the only way to maintain a colony of bees and I couldn't disagree more. Realistically I'm a very small producer of bees and queens - part of the niche in my market is organics and people who want to keep bees organically. I can afford to spend a little more on small cell wax foundation (4.9 mm) and high quality breeder queens because of the market I sell to. Production and profitability are important to me, my sideline hobby has to pay its own way and produce a profit but I wouldn't sacrifice quality any reason. I collect a small amount of honey each year but it is only for personal use and gifts for family friends and hopefully future customers, I always have a few hives out just for honey and a small free sample of organically produced honey is a good advertisement. The US is full of laws that get ignored - beekeeping laws are no different. KTBH have been around for a while and I've seen a few that were interesting to look at but Woodchuck is correct about the laws. You couldn't have these hives inspected by the state without having issues with the law but the hobbyist doesn't have to subject himself to the laws whereas a commercial operation would have no choice. Hi Cff, In France the standard hive isn't Warré, it's Dadant Blatt 10 frames (sometimes 12). we are few actually to use Warré but, with varroa and organic mind, it's starting to develop again. It's hard to find Warré in bee-shop, but since end of 2008 you can in two shops. Most of the customers are also looking for the classic Dadant hive. For me production isn't the first, quality is better. for our family needs sufficiency is easy to get. last year i harvested with a good firend 96 Kg on two hives (Dadant). No offense Woodchuck, but are you sure about that US law? i met some US beekeepers on an other board and most of them are using KTBH. so they aren't with that law. sure, it's a great hobby. when you put your finger in, you can't stop. |
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Post by cff on Jan 18, 2009 17:12:21 GMT -5
grungy" A deep Langstroth hive weighs about 95 + lbs see below  Sizing down with super bodies cuts the weight considerably, this hive is built with an Illinois medium super.  The super is a smaller version of the deep hive body using smaller frames  A screened bottom board can be used in ether hive - I build my own but you can buy anything pictured from beekeeping suppliers  Do a google search for beekeeping suppliers, theres a large number in the US who sale about anything you could want or need. Hayne would you have some pictures of the smaller versions of hives? And where would one obtain the frames and buy wax foundation that would fit the smaller size? |
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Post by grungy on Jan 19, 2009 2:26:35 GMT -5
Another question, how long can you leave a hive (just keep adding supers) before you have to break it down? The honey would be a plus, but both our neighbour and us have small orchards, small/medium gardens and flowers galore. Also we live on the edge of a farming area and there are lots of crops to keep supplying nectar for the bees, spring, summer and fall. Therefore the only honey I would plan to take is the real excess the hive doesn't require for fall, winter and early spring maintenance.
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Post by cff on Jan 20, 2009 19:54:42 GMT -5
grungy " Most folks can add supers (in a good year) till July or early August. The bulk of the surplus honey is removed around mid August. Bees will need 60 - 90 lbs (depending on the size of the hive) of honey or sugar syrup to winter on - so when your talking surplus its in excess of the amount the bees need or remove all the honey and buy syrup to build them up for winter. You can remove the honey supers as soon as there filled and capped and return them to the hive during the nectar flow or simply add new supers and wait till the end of the nectar flow. After the start of August if I extract any supers I place them apiary and let the bees clean them up good for a few days - them I store them for winter. I never leave empty supers on after August; bees don't need more space than the hive can protect - and its harder for the bees to maintain good hive temperature with too much empty space during winter. Another question, how long can you leave a hive (just keep adding supers) before you have to break it down? The honey would be a plus, but both our neighbour and us have small orchards, small/medium gardens and flowers galore. Also we live on the edge of a farming area and there are lots of crops to keep supplying nectar for the bees, spring, summer and fall. Therefore the only honey I would plan to take is the real excess the hive doesn't require for fall, winter and early spring maintenance. |
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Post by grungy on Jan 20, 2009 22:31:10 GMT -5
Thanks, Hayne. I am trying to use long term memory here. My grandmother (who was a full foot taller than I am) use to have hives but that was eons ago. I probably am asking and going to ask a lot of dumb questions on this site so I hope you can bare with me.
Cheers,
Val
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Post by cff on Jan 20, 2009 23:04:20 GMT -5
There are no dumb questions - I learn something new about bees pretty often - and I think it will be a long - long time before I know it all Thanks, Hayne. I am trying to use long term memory here. My grandmother (who was a full foot taller than I am) use to have hives but that was eons ago. I probably am asking and going to ask a lot of dumb questions on this site so I hope you can bare with me. Cheers, Val |
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Post by Penny on Jan 21, 2009 9:14:49 GMT -5
nice boxes, i have always been interested in beekeeping, but living so close to a school, i've never tried it,
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Post by cff on Jan 24, 2009 3:22:59 GMT -5
Penny " You would be amazed at how easy it is to hide a beehive so the neighbors never see it, a small wooden fence would conceal them and having to fly over the fence would keep the incoming and outgoing bees at a height above eye level. Check out the link en.epochtimes.com/news/7-8-22/58920.html |
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Post by grungy on Jan 27, 2009 7:05:05 GMT -5
Hayne, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Can you leave the filled supers on the hive, until is starts getting cooler? I was thinking of keeping the queen in the lower supers (queen excluder  ) and when the workers start retreating to be with the queen, removing the spare full supers of honey. If memory serves me right, my grandmother would insulate the bottom 3 supers in the early fall (they lived in Northern Saskatchewan at the time), and then when the day time temps. reached down around 45F-50F, she would remove the extra supers of honey (leaving enough honey for overwintering for the hive). Then closing and insulating the top section and top of the hive. Does this sound feasible to you? |
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Post by cff on Jan 27, 2009 23:44:53 GMT -5
Naaaa you were plenty clear " sometimes I'm just a little dense"  Living in the south I don't have any experience with your type of weather extremes 30F is a really cold day here. It does sound feasible but lets consider the down side. You can remove surplus honey anytime after its been capped over with wax -Late spring - summer or fall, The wax caping is a sign that the honey is at the correct moisture level, late spring to early fall is the norm. Opening a hive in -45 to -50 degree weather for any length of time could spell disaster. Bees stay warm by huddling together in a cluster and the small individual movements of each bee - moving back and forth help generate heat, disrupting the cluster (jarring - bumping the hive) could be hazardous to the bees. I don't use queen excluders - the bees fill the hive with surplus from the top down and normally the queen has no choice but to go down in the hive to find a place to lay. If the winter cluster of bees moves up past the queen excluder to find surplus food the queen could get left behind to freeze or starve to death. ***Nothing to do with honey but when you insulate the hive make sure you allow a top vent for air movement, the warmth of the bees in a hive without any air movement will suffer from condensing moisture. Moisture will kill a colony much quicker in cold weather that the cold alone.*** Hayne, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Can you leave the filled supers on the hive, until is starts getting cooler? I was thinking of keeping the queen in the lower supers (queen excluder ) and when the workers start retreating to be with the queen, removing the spare full supers of honey. If memory serves me right, my grandmother would insulate the bottom 3 supers in the early fall (they lived in Northern Saskatchewan at the time), and then when the day time temps. reached down around 45F-50F, she would remove the extra supers of honey (leaving enough honey for overwintering for the hive). Then closing and insulating the top section and top of the hive. Does this sound feasible to you? |
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) and when the workers start retreating to be with the queen, removing the spare full supers of honey. If memory serves me right, my grandmother would insulate the bottom 3 supers in the early fall (they lived in Northern Saskatchewan at the time), and then when the day time temps. reached down around 45F-50F, she would remove the extra supers of honey (leaving enough honey for overwintering for the hive). Then closing and insulating the top section and top of the hive. Does this sound feasible to you?