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Post by Alan on Dec 26, 2007 18:37:57 GMT -5
That's actually a really good idea, exspecially for first generation crossing. The only problem comes if you try to save the seed from the White ears, you will have to segregate and select for either the SH2 or SU/SE kernals, and I'm betting SU is dominant. However for fresh market sales, you are onto something and it would be an easy to make hybrid every year which would also allow you to save seed from the original Astronomy Domine stock!
Great idea Johno!
-Alan
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Post by johno on Feb 12, 2008 15:37:20 GMT -5
Looks like I'm not going to have very much room for white sweet corn. I don't want to crowd the Astronomy Domine to fit it in. But there will be room for some, just a few for eating here at home and a few to show off.
So... I didn't really see the need for buying synergistics or other fancy whites; I was going to pick up a pack of whatever is available locally. But today I was searching the closet for my soil thermometer, and I found an old pack of Silver Queen! Not exactly the white I had in mind, but I hate to see it go to waste. The fact is, it might be too late. This pack (looks like a couple ounces) is from somewhere around the turn of the century - can't pin down the exact year. I'll do a germination test to see if it can be salvaged. Wish me luck!
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Post by canadamike on Feb 13, 2008 0:24:09 GMT -5
Johno and Alan.
Alan, ou already know I am inclined to
include more dwarf/small corn in the mix, but I also want more sugar. Like Johno just said, I was temted by the synergistics from Stokes, the supplier of the MERLIN I sent you. I really want to add sugar to the mix, that's my main goal, but Iwould love to dwarf the mix, for a lesser nitrogen consumption ( correct english?). Is the dwarfing gene dominant or recessive?
I would suspect recessive, but then I don't really know. It simply adds to the time taking to achieve one's goals. But I would love to know.
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Post by Alan on Feb 13, 2008 13:40:20 GMT -5
I haven't had much of a chance to grow out and segregate the dwarf crosses that are in the Astronomy Domine yet so I am not sure whether it is recessive our not. My guess would be yes, but then corn genetics are strange and there may not even be a "dwarf" gene so to speak, perhaps the shortness of the plants are more to do with just general selection and inbreeding for northern climates and since corn is day sensitive in it's growth it's hard to say.
My guess is it is fairly recessive considering the few varieties that express the trait.
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Post by johno on May 6, 2008 0:00:13 GMT -5
The germination rate on that old Silver Queen was 80%, if I remember correctly. So that's a go.
I noticed as I've been sowing Astronomy Domine a row or two a day that there are mostly burgundy-colored kernals - also a few blues, yellows, and whites. I think I'll have the first spouts up soon. I'll be sowing over the course of around a week, to keep crossing the early and late maturing plants. Around the end of the week I'll go back and sow some S. Q. to be detassled and pollinated by A.D. when the time comes. I might save some of that seed to throw in next year's mix.
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Post by Alan on May 6, 2008 15:52:08 GMT -5
That's what I'm doing as well Johno. A couple of patches of Astronomy Domine are in Isolation, but some large patches are intercroped with Silver King, which will be detassled, seed will be saved and bulked from all the fields for future work.
You should see the mix I planted this year after adding in all of the new genetics, it was a thing of beauty!
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Post by johno on May 14, 2008 8:52:44 GMT -5
This caught me off guard...  It seems this Arkansas soil/weather is laying some heavy selection pressure on Astronomy Domine before I get a chance to. I am further south than Alan, so I thought surely it was warm enough to plant some corn after Alan started. I planted the first two rows on May 1st. The germination rate on those is around 25%!  I waited several days after the first shoots appeared to become worried, but yesterday I sat down to dig some up (they are easy to find, because this old carpenter used a string line and a tape measure...) The first one was missing, the second one was partially eaten, and the third one I dug up was just starting to disintegrate.  They are rotting in the soil. The next and succeeding sets of rows are getting increasingly better germination - up to 50% - but there are still a few rows that haven't started sprouting just yet, and I expect them to approach normal germination rates. It looks like I should have waited another week to begin planting. We have had lots of cloudy and rainy days this month, which means cooler and wetter soil than I expected. The rows that were planted just before we had a few truly warm, sunny days will most likely be fine. The soil here has a high clay content, which likes to stay cool and wet. I mixed compost in the rows to help with that (and have been improving it thusly for years,) but apparently not enough. They say amending with sand is a bad idea, but I'm starting to think otherwise... I believe a 50/50 mix of sand/compost worked into the top 3 or 4 inches of the corn rows would have prevented this problem. Lessons learned... Meanwhile, I may end up with a barely large enough population for seed saving, according to Seed to Seed. But it will be just enough, I think; and there again, what's left will be well suited for cool, wet soils.  Another mistake I made  ... I had planned on using Silver King (or something similar) initially as a white corn to be detassled and pollinated by the Astronomy Domine. Then I found this batch of Silver Queen to use instead. It's similar in a lot of ways, but the worst difference is that it has a longer DTM, which I only discovered very recently... too recently. So whereas I should have been planting it at the same time or even earlier, I have been planting it several days later than the first rows of Astronomy Domine, assuming it had the same or earlier DTM. But it's close - close enough, I hope - so the latest plantings of A.D. should pollinate the earliest plantings of S.Q. It might behoove me to save and refrigerate some pollen from all the A.D. plants to use a few days later on the latest plantings of S.Q. I do have a handful of Rainbow Inca sweet corn which I had planned to sow a few weeks later than the above, in order to isolate by time. It has a ready-to-eat dtm of 75-80 days, so perhaps I can go back and plant it where the A.D. didn't come up, and let it bear a pollen influence. It should time well if I plant them today... We'll see how it pans out. ;D |
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Post by Alan on May 14, 2008 13:28:53 GMT -5
Yes, I figured planting early would get rid of the poor genetics for cool soil tolerance, don't feel bad friend, I got about 70% or so germination but this is about what I expected given the poor cool soil emergence of the Ruby Queen hybrid in the mix. I would imagine most of the non germinating seeds in the mix were of this particular persuasion. Don't fret, you will have plenty to select seed for future planting and breeding work with. Keep in mind the rules for saving sweet corn seed are pertaining particularly to fixed varieties with little to no genetic variation, this mix would have more than enough variation in a population of only fifty plants for future seed saving. If I were you I would add the rainbow inca as well, it has terrific cool soil emergence properties and will add that much more diversity and some terrific large colorful kernals to the mix. As you can see and read in the new pedigree I added quite a bit of Rainbow Inca into my mix here on the farm along with a number of new germplasm types.
The silver queen will mature at the same time that the latest ears of Astronomy Domine will mature. When you save seeds, search particularly through the silver queen and pick those with the most colors and add them to the rest of your Astronomy Domine mix, this will give you a good mix of genetics, but keep in mind that next year if you plant in cool wet soil you will loose some of these genetics as well, the same is true with silver king which is even less cool soil tolerant.
We are working on something great here buddy, keep it up and take care of your plants, this fall I'll send you a sample of the new mix again to add back into the mix you currently have, from there you should have more than enough genetic variability to begin to develop a highly regionalized and localized strain of Astronomy Domine, the Johno strain if you will.
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Post by pugs on May 14, 2008 18:14:35 GMT -5
John and Alan,
I haven't grown corn in a long time and I am not an expert, but I remember reading that when my hero, Luther Burbank was working on a corn variety, he would pull suckers off the best plants, root them and use them for seed saving. Don't know if this would work for you. Seems that the suckers would be a bit later in development, so they might work for the Silver Queen cross. Also, you would have more plants from the cold emerging seeds. Just an idea.
Pugs
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Post by johno on May 15, 2008 14:41:00 GMT -5
I've never heard of that before - sounds like it's worth a try. Thanks for the idea!
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Post by johno on May 15, 2008 19:53:10 GMT -5
I went out and used up the Rainbow Inca where A.D. hadn't come up. It was just about right to fill in the blanks in the first (and earlier of two) block.
I measured the soil temperature today at 69 degrees. Not as cool as I thought it must have been, but it has certainly been wet.
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Post by Alan on May 19, 2008 23:24:41 GMT -5
Keep us up to date buddy!
I'm thinking that using Ruby Queen, Silver Queen, and Silver King and their higher sugar content was a bad idea when trying to select for cool, wet soil emergence, but hey, I live, I learn, I adapt, I educate, and we will still get something terrific from this strain, I'm sure. At least the weather was kind enough to do the selection process for us, making it easier when it comes time to harvest truly great selections from the seed that we will produce. Mine is looking good and I have thus far refused to plant the few empty spots where it didn't come up in hopes of making a more refined selection adapted to cool, wet soils, which we definetly are having here in Southern Indiana this season. I just gotta keep telling myself "keep doing what you do, it will be important in time and the crop will be better for every little lesson you learn!"
Keep up the good work Johno and by the way the Rainbow Inca was a terrific choice with great cool soil emergence properties, a little more starchy, but terrific on the grill! I think you will really enjoy!
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Post by johno on May 20, 2008 22:59:02 GMT -5
I went to Pioneer Day in Norfork last Saturday to donate some tomato plants for the Heirloom Seed Shop to sell. While I was there, a pack of Stowell's Evergreen caught my eye... So I'll probably fill in the empty Silver Queen spots with that. Silver Queen just started sprouting yesterday, so by tomorrow I ought to have a good idea of the germination thereof. If I keep this up, I'll still be sowing seed when the first ears are ripe - lol...
The Astronomy Domine plants that are up look great! You are so right, that the germination problems were good fortune in disguise - survival of the fittest in perfect form. But I don't think adding extra sugar content is a bad idea. I might even be looking into some SE's for the next generation here.
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Post by flowerpower on May 21, 2008 21:03:37 GMT -5
I may just go mad scientist with the corn. I think I will pick up another pack of sweet bicolor to mix in.
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Post by canadamike on May 25, 2008 1:11:59 GMT -5
You folks are teasing me like hell. I will be crossing it with Argent, so Johno, the spirit of your project is alive  but I will also try with a white Miraï, the sweetest corn I ever tried by and large, enough to call the ShQ sours, and I am not kidding...or just a bit. Anyway, they give them the hell of a run for their money and then loose them in the dust... But this little devil grungy revived my cornographic fantasy about the dwarves when she spotted a dwarf 2.5 to 3 feet sweet corn, and I found a couple of others, so did she. They have been ordered, along with melons and multiple accessions Agastache foeniculum, I want to test its potential as a single crop honey production plant. I am preparing to plant one or 2, probably 2 acres of this perennial, 1200 or so are already seeded, 5,000 are in the mail, plus the Grin stuff...and another 10,000 later I guess... as if I needed this... I am also growing Pickanniny and Orchard baby for Heritage Harvest Seed, a beautiful little seed company in Manitoba, an we are on the smaller end of the scale here, short of really dwarf. Check it out, it is really woth it, and the owner is joining us a bfter her rush... www.heritageharvestseed.com/All these are partly in the ground, in that I started some in flats, 1200 or so, to get ahaid and give me another pollination window with all the varieties I grow, I don't have the luxury of Alan's space yet, 45 acres are rented ( last year of the contract...YESSSSS) Anyway, AD will be crossed with two whites at least, and one yellow, Merlin, this corn has so much going for it I can't refuse him the privilege ;D Speaking of Merlin, Alan, did you plant it at 6 inches like I once, long ago, told you or did you go for the usual 4? At 6, it gives you 2, very often 3 ears, and big ones they are with 22 rows of small but very deep kernels...Usually, the third one is smaller but every bit as great tasting and sweet, of course... I will also grow 400 or so plants of Chires Baby corn, the real chinese one, which produces up to 40 small ears, so the people here should be good to get seeds by the fall since almost 300 have been started in cells. Did I send anybody here my supply of Japanese striped corn, by any chance? Can't find it... Alan, I have 100 seeds or so of Pennsylvania Dutch Butter Popcorn. Ever tried it? Is it good? I also ordered one from Grin that pops 35 times its volume, they said it was their best. What is the usual ratio? Well, I am baking bagels for my monster teenager...I should go |
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It seems this Arkansas soil/weather is laying some heavy selection pressure on Astronomy Domine before I get a chance to.
I waited several days after the first shoots appeared to become worried, but yesterday I sat down to dig some up (they are easy to find, because this old carpenter used a string line and a tape measure...) The first one was missing, the second one was partially eaten, and the third one I dug up was just starting to disintegrate. 
They are rotting in the soil.
... I had planned on using Silver King (or something similar) initially as a white corn to be detassled and pollinated by the Astronomy Domine. Then I found this batch of Silver Queen to use instead. It's similar in a lot of ways, but the worst difference is that it has a longer DTM, which I only discovered very recently... too recently. So whereas I should have been planting it at the same time or even earlier, I have been planting it several days later than the first rows of Astronomy Domine, assuming it had the same or earlier DTM. But it's close - close enough, I hope - so the latest plantings of A.D. should pollinate the earliest plantings of S.Q. It might behoove me to save and refrigerate some pollen from all the A.D. plants to use a few days later on the latest plantings of S.Q.
but I will also try with a white Miraï, the sweetest corn I ever tried by and large, enough to call the ShQ sours, and I am not kidding...or just a bit. Anyway, they give them the hell of a run for their money and then loose them in the dust...