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Post by hiven on Jun 12, 2009 12:16:34 GMT -5
Hi all, Last year, I am growing a type of Korean F1 summer squash (a vining type) and liked it very much. The fruit is not just tasty but also has a very attractive looking shape and colour. This year, I am growing 4 plants (from the last 5 seeds but 1 didn't germinate). I really wish to dehybrid them, how should I do it  Many thanks in advanced  . |
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Post by robertb on Jun 12, 2009 13:03:43 GMT -5
Save seed. Grow it, and select the plant you like best. Save seed from it. Do the same thing annually for several generations, until you have a stable variety. I'm not sure how long this is lokely to take for squash. Remember it's an outbreeder, and you may want to hand pollinate and bag flowers to ensure true seed.
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Post by grungy on Jun 12, 2009 13:06:00 GMT -5
If it is similar to other plants it probably will take 6-10 years to stabilize completely. However if you are extremely lucky it will be approaching a stabilized product in 4 or 5 years.
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Post by hiven on Jun 12, 2009 17:04:20 GMT -5
Thanks Robertb And Grungy . I do hand pollinate my squashes, Robertb, I usually bag them the night before and then hand pollinate and rebag again. I am aware of the outbreeder rule of minimum 20 plants (according to "seed to seed" book) ,but according to a NZ source (Koanga institute), a minimum of 6 plants will also give a good genetics diversities. These 4 plants are in the low side in genetics diversities but I will get the F2 grown of minimum 6 (to 8) plants or even 20 plants if need be. Grungy, I can only reckon the fastest of 4-5 years in order to get it stabilize with a maximum of 10 years. Is 4-5 years here means 4 to 5 generations of selected plant (F5 and F6) ? I can only have 1 growing cycle / year in my climate thought I am included in the border of zone 7b-8a. Would growing more plants speed up the selections and stabilizing process ? Wish I could live in a subtropic climate where I can have 3 growing cycle...Oops greedy! |
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Post by grungy on Jun 12, 2009 23:07:50 GMT -5
It possibly would give you a better chance at find a more stable line, but unfortunately it still will take a minimum of 4 years and probably closer to 7. Have you by chance a greenhouse? It might be able to let you at least double the number of times you can plant. Barring that perhaps you could prevail on one of our southern hemisphere neighbours to do alternate grow outs for you. How many days from planting until ripe fruit?
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Post by canadamike on Jun 12, 2009 23:31:45 GMT -5
You have to grow a certain number of them to have a chance of getting someting similar. There is a small mathematical cha nce you make it with 4-5 plants, but don'T COUNT ON IT. The minimum number for SOME safety is close to 20, because it is 16 plus a margin of error. I myself go further than that, this year I am growing close to 60 plants of a mass-cross that produced incredibly strong squash plants.
No genious here, just good observation, a Thelma Sanders x Sweet Dumpling squash cross artfully designed by the bees created a monster of a plant.
I had nothing to do with the planning, maybe I should become a liar and ask for credits for the hugest pepo squash I saw in my life, but they know me around here, so the lie would not make a lot of mileage, it would be called soon.
I guess lying is not that fashionable here..
Anyway, if you want to dehybridize, grow more plants, the more the better.
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Post by grungy on Jun 13, 2009 2:50:11 GMT -5
Thank you, Michel. I should have caught that. Mendel square squared is the minimum way to go if you have the room (4 squared = 16) for every trait you wish to chase is the appropriate minimum number. Sorry about that. Its what happens when you put in 16+ hour days.
By the way Michel, how is that cross coming?
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Post by redneckplanter on Jun 13, 2009 6:22:34 GMT -5
wow learning a lot here guys thanks guys....
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Post by hiven on Jun 13, 2009 8:02:45 GMT -5
Thanks Michel, I will count on 20 plants then. Grungy, the squash mature pretty early as early as early summer crookneck, most possibly around 50 days or so. I will try to persuade my gardener friend in New Zealand to join help me as he got spring while we are in winter. I do have a greenhouse ,but it is unheated and the plants don't like it compare to growing in a real warm climate. Here is an old picture of this squash, feel free to view it : i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv142/Hiven_2009/Koreansquash4-1.jpg I will try my best to save seeds, if any of you would like to help, let me know please ? thanks again all! |
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Post by castanea on Jun 13, 2009 21:14:31 GMT -5
No genious here, just good observation, a Thelma Sanders x Sweet Dumpling squash cross artfully designed by the bees created a monster of a plant. I had nothing to do with the planning, maybe I should become a liar and ask for credits for the hugest pepo squash I saw in my life, but they know me around here, so the lie would not make a lot of mileage, it would be called soon. But good observation can approach genius. Don't minimize your accomplishment. I've grown seedlings that at first glance seemed to be nothing special but closer observation revealed otherwise. I still worry that I might be missing something. I start with preconceived parameters regarding numeorus factors and sometimes having too many preconceived ideas limits my observations. For example, if something talkes too long to fruit I tend to discount it, but that plant might otherwise be awesome. Observing intelligently is not necessarily easy. |
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Post by grungy on Jun 13, 2009 23:27:17 GMT -5
Hiven, wouldn't mind helping next year, but would like a couple of F1 seeds for comparison so we will know what we are looking for. I would suggest that you do this with every one who may grow it on for you.
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Post by hiven on Jun 14, 2009 2:09:29 GMT -5
Grungy, unfortunately I won't have any F1 seed left, these 4 plants were from my last 5 F1 seeds (1 seed didn't germinate).
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Post by grungy on Jun 14, 2009 2:21:42 GMT -5
In that case please give a detailed fact sheet of what traits we should be looking for that you want.
By the way where did you obtain the seeds from? Perchance a company?
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Post by hiven on Jun 14, 2009 3:39:10 GMT -5
It was from Evergreen: www.evergreenseeds.com/korsquashybg.htmlI will take pictures and take notes this year, if it fail... I might resolve in ordering another pack of new seeds . I hope to save the F2 seeds this year as we have planned our holiday for November, next year will be difficult for me due to holiday planning... oh dear...I get worried thinking about timing. I will try to take as much note (and pictures) as possible and once I got some F2 seeds, will post it again . What type of notes do you find important apart from day of maturity, shape of fruit (and size) and growing habit ? Thanks! |
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Post by grungy on Jun 14, 2009 9:33:35 GMT -5
I know that it is hard to define, but the aspects that you are looking for in the F1's. Such as taste and texture. What we would like is an idea of exactly what we are "chasing" down. If you look at tomato crosses, we and several other people are working on a Neves Alzorian crossed with a Brandywine. In the F2 seeds we had 12 seeds and grew out 12 different to slightly different looking and tasting tomatoes. We selected a large pink one (#10) to chase down and stabilize and we are calling it Devian Pink Brandy. Other who received the same F1's are chasing down different variations. If you could tell us being as exact as possible what you are looking for in that particular squash we won't be working at odds to each other.
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