Allium cepa perutile/Everlasting Onion

[paquebot]

The most comprehensive list of alliums that I've found is one in Australia.
www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Allium.html
That has A. cepa perutile as False Welsh onion. Even then, there appears to be uncertainty as to where it belongs. If it is A. cepa lusitanum, then it's Perennial Welsh onion.

Not certain where the I'Itoi belong as I've yet to see an official Latin name for them. Those extra little bulbs that I have are looking toward a flight across the Atlantic. Live plants can always make it to Canada in the spring. It was exactly this time in December 2002 when I first got them from an SSE member in Arizona. I chipped holes in the frozen soil to plant the dried up bulbs and every single one of them survived!

Martin

[stevil]

Dec 13, 2008 16:06:09 GMT -5 PatrickW said:

I think I'm growing kurrat now.

I made a post about it here:

www.patnsteph.net/weblog/?p=343

If anyone manages to get some going in their garden, it would be interesting to compare with what I have.

It didn't produce any seeds last year. Maybe I'll get some seeds this year, or I can probably get some more from my fellow gardener, if anyone wants to try.

I always like plants with a story attached - there's a project in Sweden registering the plants which refugees have introduced. I would very very much like to get my grubby little hands on that Afghani leek at some stage.... Once my Kurrats are big enough, it might even be possible to do a genetic comparison.....

That reminds me that this summer I was at a joint Norwegian-Swedish gardening club meeting and the woman who runs the nursery where I bought the Callirhoe poppy discussed elsewhere presented me with a "to her" unknown bean that her Polish workers were cultivating (and just had to have!) - turned out to be Broad Beans (Favas). Norwegians never traditionally used Broad Beans for food - this is animal food here. However, for me (like the Poles) this is must have food....

[mybighair]

stevil,

I have Allium cepa perutile, and it's definitely different to the Welsh onions I grow. They are clump forming, don't flower, and are used like you would spring onions.

They've been slow to establish in my garden and the clumps remain small but I can spare two or three bulbs (not that they really form bulbs) to give you a start if you'd like. You may have to wait a bit for them though as they are sitting in frozen ground buried under the snow at the moment.

Message me your address if you'd like them.

[stevil]

Hi Mybighair,

That's good of you to remember! Actually, I did eventually get hold of it last year. However, I suspect that it won't prove to be hardy here. As most of Western Europe we're having the worst winter for many years. Currently hovering around -20C day and night and it's now under -40C inland from here...

I'll bear in mind and contact you later if I lose it.

Thanks again!

Great, by the way, to be posting in the onion part of the forum for the very first time...

Stephen

[Al]

I can confirm what Big Hair says, Perutile (Latin for 'very useful') are different from Welsch Onions. Perutile Onions, or Sybies as they are called in Scotland are clump forming evergreen. They form dense masses of chive-like plants if neglected. On good soil, planted out 10 cm apart they grow much like a shallot, lots of tasty green leaves & useful bulb with reddish outer scales. Dormant through July & early August, then new growth & division through Autumn. A bedraggled period in the coldest months, then a surge of very early new growth in Spring. It can be planted pretty much anytime, when it is actively growing is best. A reliable trouble free plant which deserves to be grown near every kitchen door, or a clump lifted & kept in a bucket ready to peel & cook. I have a solitary flower this year after 20 years of never seeing a flower! The picture attached to my profile is a clump at their biggest in May. That is a house brick behind for scale.

[templeton]

Al,
thanks for bumping this thread.
Do they form topsetting bulbils?. Got one seed off a plant last year, which has grown into a nice bunch. Fairly temperate where i live, so they grow well all year, apart from late summer when they start to form topsets, and the scapes get rather fibrous.
Will do some further reading.
T

[Al]

Templeton.
My solitary flower does not appear to be top setting, I'll take a picture later & try to post it. I know another Scottish grower had a flush of flowers last year & is successfully growing seedlings this year, he reports that a flowering plant will tend to produce flowering offsets. But perhaps my lonesome flower will not set seed (is it likely to need cross pollination with other flowers?). I wonder if the evergreen habit & ability to cope with wet conditions is an example of Allium cepa adapting to local conditions. No need to bulb if summers are wet.
Really enjoying learning about all the experiences of all the knowledgable dudes & dudesses on this forum. Inspired to try to improve my various onions. I never realised the potential of my top set onions for example. Thanks to all for sharing.

[templeton]

Al,
I presume You've looked at the Catawissa, topset thread? A quick look at the Melb Uni link you provided has been educational. Might email the author and see if I catch up with him some time when I'm in Melbourne - it's only 90 minutes away, and I get down there a bit.
T

[Al]

Here is a attempt at posting an image on Flickr. A very rare Perutile flower. There might be some capsules swelling there.

IMG_0753 by portobell0,

IMG_0759 by portobell0,

[philagardener]

Unfortunately, that link didn't load an image when I tried it (just to let you know).

[Al]

O.k. I think my images are appearing on posts now. Here are some more. I will watch my flower closely for ripe seed & bulbils. No sign of bulbils yet, but it is early days. A couple of leek flowers nearby are heavy with capsules but no sign of little plantlets yet (pods), & I know leeks do produce pods eventually. Unless seed production suppresses pod / bulbil production? Anyway I am keen to grow some Perutile from seed just to clean the strain, it has been passed around my allotment site longer than anyone can remember so a bit of sexual healing might reinvigorate the old thing. Folk have always referred to this as Welsh Onions. But as it really has not flowered, ever, until this year, I think it must be Allium cepa
Perutile. How do you ever get a definitive identification of something like this?

Those tree onions people have grown are really impressive. I started a row this Spring, they are growing well & seem to be bulbing up nicely below ground. Abortive / tiny scapes in summer but plants clearly decided not to attempt major top set production this year. So I hope my strain will divide & bulb to give useful ground bulbs, maybe over 2 or 3 years, & produce enough top sets to get new plants started every year.

Interested to see people getting normal bulb onions to divide. I plan to grow Zebrune a.k.a Cuisse de Poulet du Poiteau next year, anyone know if it has the capacity to divide if I keep plants going for a few years?IMG_0770 by portobell0

[Al]

IMG_0747 by portobell0Philogenic tree by portobell0

[templeton]

Thanks for phylogenetic tree, Al.
And good to see you got the hang of posting pics
T

[robertb]

I thought perutile was A cepa as well. I ought to try growing Welsh Onion next to it to see what the differences are.

[Al]

As I understand it the species; Allium Cepa L. (not sure what the "L" signifies), is comprised of three horticultural groups.

The Cepa group. Only one form is represented in this group- A. cepa var. cepa.
The Aggregatum Group. Which includes the cultivars; shallot, potato onion & ever-ready / perutile onion. E.g. Allium cepa L. (Aggregatum Group) cv. 'Perutile'
The Proliferum Group. Topset onions.

But Allium fistulosum can cross with Allium cepa & I think Topset onions are now regarded as such a hybrid.

Allium fistulosum comprises Welsch Onions & numerous mainly oriental cultivars.

I have Red Welsch Onions (they ain't Welsh so Welsch denotes the Old Germanic root word meaning foreign), & Kaigaro bunching onions growing next to Perutile onions. The main difference is the Welsch Onions flower & have more tubular leaves. Perutile Onions are very vigorous & divide profusely.