On wintermelons/wax gourds

[blueadzuki]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone out there could answer a little puzzement I have always had with regards to wintermelons/wax gourds (the big white things with the bloomy green skin you see in Chinese vegetable markets)

I long ago developed a taste for wintermelon soup, so I have, for a while tried to make attempts to grow the melons myself. However whenever I have gone looking for seed I have always come up against something curios, namely the seed that I see sold as winter melon seed in the seed packets (regardless of who I get it from) do not really resemble those I pull out of the wintermelon wedges I buy at the vegetable market before I cook it. I am aware of the fact that wintermelon is usally not completely ripe when sold, but this is more of a difference that that one would see between uripe and ripe seed. I am aware that "wintermelon" likey covers more thna one species of Bencasia , but the two look more like seed from two completely different genera. The seed packet seed usally resembles a squash pupkin seed, whitish tan, with a prominent margin (sometimes very hard and prominents with a recessed center as on the seed of the related hairy gourd). In contrast the seed in the melons sold in the markets while also white are a bit smaller more slender and have no margin at all (Imgine a dead white watermlon seed, or a really inflated giant cucumber or sweet melon seed) that's how it more or less always divides up, I have never seen a winter melon for sale that has seed like what the packets usally contain, and have only ever bumped into ONE seed packet seller whose seed resembled the "commercial" wintermelon (I found it in Chinatown and can't read Chinese so I don't know who the selling company was, but I remeber it was a very big packet, it was plastic (not paper) and the seed house's logo was an elephant). Does anyone whith more knowedge of Oriental cucucrbits know if the two really are different species?

[castanea]

All the seed I have seen in the melons and in packets lacked a margin. They were all at least somehwhat similar.

If the seed you are buying originated in China there is a good chance that it was mislabled somewhere along the way. In Asian grocers, mislabeled seeds from China are a common occurrence. For example, you will sometimes see watermelon seed being sold in Asian grocers as pumpkin seed.

Agrohaitai sometimes sells as many as 5 different varieties of winter melon seed and they are the real thing:

www.agrohaitai.com/fruit&gourd/wintermelon/wintermelon.htm

Evergreen Seeds sells as many as 8 varieties and I have never known them to mislable anything:

www.evergreenseeds.com/waxgourwinme.html

[blueadzuki]

That's just it, some of the seed came for sources to packed in China, but not all. For example the first winter melon seed I ever got came from The Banana Tree and those people don't make a lot of mistakes (okay there was an incident with some Albizia guachapele seed but that was the exception not the rule)

I know all about the seed mixups possible in seed packed in China. Last year while wandering I decied to spluge on three packets of hyacynth beans (Dolichos lablab) intended to plat the best ones. I never got the chace to select though since out of the 40 odd seeds in the three packets only 5 were actually hyacynth beans (4 of which look pretty shriveled) the rest were some sort of brown common bean. What makes this one inexplicable is that the 5 real beans were in with commons youd think someone somewhere would have noticed that the seeds running through the packing machine into the packets looked nothing like each other. Lucky I got some other hyacynths for this upcoming year from somewhere else, so I won't be short. the other problem is that when on ocassion I find some seed that is really good, the mixups mean that on probability I'll never find it again (One packer had at one time a phenomenally productive red seeded snowpea, next year they were packing the orginary green). And don't get me started about the "Chinese Dill thing" though that isnt reallly a packing mix problem, just a labeling one (some compay packs seed for a kind of fluffy green under the cryptic label "Chives: Small Fennel" After growing it pretty much every year for the last five I still don't know what it is (apart from a lousy germinator out of the 1/2 oz or so seed in a packet you usally get 3-4 plants (even if you take the time to seperate the seeds out and plant them 1 by one) the plants smell alternately like parsely,like fennel,like dill, like caraway and like nothing (an bear in mind this is the same plant were not taking about a random assortment) I call it Chinese Dill simply becuse the Chinese on the packet is similar to the characters for dill.)
But thnaks for the links.

[castanea]

If you find out anything else, let us know. I think wintermelons are fascinating plants.

[orflo]

Benincasa is just too demanding in warmth to be grown out here, and I don't want to sacrifice place in my greenhouse for them. I've rarely seen them, even not in Chinese shops....Here's a page with pictures of different varieties, it's in French, but the pictures are quite good, if you click on the picture of the different fruits you get more info on that specific fruit (mainly pictures as well), it's a very good site for cucurbitaceae in general as well:
cucurbitophile.fr/esp/001/esp.php

[blueadzuki]

Thanks for the site orflo, you just provided visual expination for waht I was talking about! since all of the links include coseup pictures of the seeds you can see waht I was meant. N'2 and Canton Giant (#'s 2 and 3 in the top row) are smooth like what I find in the fruits in the stores, ALL of the others have the ridges like the packet seed. As hard as it is to believe it looks like it is simply a matter of what strain you get (either that or there are two subspecies, one smooth, one ridged) I guess most of the packet makers just like the ridged one better. Maybe its a size thing, both of the smooth ones are really big which is fine for the commecial markets (where they're usaually chopped into wedges and sold by the pound anyway. but not so great for the home gardener. I also understand that wintermelon seeds like watermelon seeds are popular snacks in China, the ridged ones may crack in the mouth easier (I know from experiance that the smooth ones crack abysmally, ther shell is so soft it splinters randomly)
Just to be clear, castanea were you just interested in any further ifo I come across on wintermelons or also in the funny dill?

[castanea]

Jan 31, 2010 11:05:40 GMT -5 blueadzuki said:

Thanks for the site orflo, you just provided visual expination for waht I was talking about! since all of the links include coseup pictures of the seeds you can see waht I was meant. N'2 and Canton Giant (#'s 2 and 3 in the top row) are smooth like what I find in the fruits in the stores, ALL of the others have the ridges like the packet seed. As hard as it is to believe it looks like it is simply a matter of what strain you get (either that or there are two subspecies, one smooth, one ridged) I guess most of the packet makers just like the ridged one better. Maybe its a size thing, both of the smooth ones are really big which is fine for the commecial markets (where they're usaually chopped into wedges and sold by the pound anyway. but not so great for the home gardener. I also understand that wintermelon seeds like watermelon seeds are popular snacks in China, the ridged ones may crack in the mouth easier (I know from experiance that the smooth ones crack abysmally, ther shell is so soft it splinters randomly)
Just to be clear, castanea were you just interested in any further ifo I come across on wintermelons or also in the funny dill?

Any info on wintermelons.

Thanks orflo for the site.

I don't think I've ever seen a ridged wintermelon seed. Last week I bought three different varieties at local Asian grocers. Two had the smooth seeds and I haven't opened the third yet.

[blueadzuki]

Oh yeah slight confusion there. Your right watermlon seeds dont usally have ridges. Squash melon seeds (Citrullus vulgaris) have ridges, that's what I must have been thinking of. What I was getting at is that unlike the ridged seeds the smooth seeded wintermelons do not have a weak area along the edges of the seed (or more accurately the seed coat is equally weak all over) so if you try and pop the kernel out with your teeth (as you are supposed to do if you are snacking). the shell will splinter randomly rather than popping in two neat halves so it isn't nearly as pleasant to eat.

[orflo]

And I'm interested in thiewintermelon, but also in this dilll-like plant, so if you have any more info on that (some pictures perhaps?), I would appreciate it....

[blueadzuki]

At the moment, I don't. It's the middle of winter here so of course I don't have any growing outside, nor to my knowedge do I have any of the seed in current reserver (a side effect of that terrible germination I mentioned, even when I can find multiple packets (and I can usally dig up three or four in a years combing) it take the contents of ALL of them to get any growth, and even then you're lucky to get a handful of the stuff total (it either grows really slowly or goes to flower really quickly as I've never seen it get taller than about 3-4 in) Even saving the empty packets in readable condition is hard, as this company like to use a pressure closed paper packet, rather than the standard Shaker envelope (so you pretty much tear up all of the info when you take the seeds out, unless your a good hand with an exacto knife blade) However as soon as I find some more packets I'll be sure to at least scan one and post it, so you can see what I'm talking about (though as it isn't a sort of cucubit, I'll probaby post the new thread in either the Apiacae or other veggies section).

[marjeta]

Blueadzuki,

have you already started the wax gourds? They fascinate me too. I bought some seeds last year and I've put half of the seeds in the pots, but still nothing new (I fear the worst). I hope I get at least 1 plant.
lh5.ggpht.com/_UgkkREQYReE/S9ArdhsSe5I/AAAAAAAAEwg/9ZtI8jYPnTo/s640/_MG_6361.jpg
In Slovenia noone sells wax gourds.

[Hristo]

Years ago received some seeds from Thailand, among them one packet was labeled "Giant Cucumber" (ridged seeds). Took me 2 years until i identified it as Benincasa (the hairy type). I was disappointed of the taste (not bad, but nothing special). Few days ago saw some packets with benincasa seeds I had received past years and decided to give them a try. Among them there are varieties with interesting to me names (translations), like Beijing Ultra Early and Black-skined. Can you tell me which is the best way to use (prepare) wax gourd?

Marjeta,
My limited experience showed that the seeds often need above 20 degrees C and more than 20 days to germinate.

[blueadzuki]

Apr 22, 2010 5:58:56 GMT -5 marjeta said:

Blueadzuki,

have you already started the wax gourds? They fascinate me too. I bought some seeds last year and I've put half of the seeds in the pots, but still nothing new (I fear the worst). I hope I get at least 1 plant.
lh5.ggpht.com/_UgkkREQYReE/S9ArdhsSe5I/AAAAAAAAEwg/9ZtI8jYPnTo/s640/_MG_6361.jpg
In Slovenia noone sells wax gourds.

I didn't actually say I was planting winter melons this year, the question that started this thread was one I had though about for some time previosly when I tried. My garden really has room for only one "big" cucurbit each year, and this is a year I'm growing watermelons. I like WinterMelon soup particualry the Shanghaiese variation with more or less just the melon and some ham (Had a great serving of that stuff yesterday in Flushing) but that's always been part of the problem besides the soup, there really arent all that many things you DO with a wintermelon. You can dice it up and add it to stirfrys or put it in steamed vegeables, but it's really more of a texture food than a flavor food, and I suspect it's place in chinese cusine is due more to textural and medicinal reasons (it's supposed to help purify the body and act as a "cooling" vegetable) than for any wonderful flavoring reasons, and since one fruit probably makes enough soup to serve a small army (or why almost every Chinese market sells it by the wedge, not the fruit) actually growing the stuff for the few pots of soup I might want to make seems like overkill. Oh and I forgot when they are really small you can pickle them.

[marjeta]

blueadzuki, I thought you'd give them a try. I'm aware that you can't do much with them, and the watermelons are way more palatable. But I've never been rational when deciding what to plant. Maybe it comes with age...

Hristo, thanks for the info. I've transfered the pots in a much warmer room (my bedroom actually).

[blueadzuki]

Actually marjeta, it doesn't it's just after a while the emotional trauma you get from the repeated failure leads you to start seriosly questioning whether a given endeavor is really worth the agaita. and as for maturity assuming the picture you use for an avatar is 1. of you and 2. recent, you're not that much younger than I am (I'm thirty). Whe. push come to shove I'm just as irrational about starting things in my garden as I ever was (In my POV in the back of my mind I frankly suspect that given my hyper acild soil near total perperual shade, severe Lutton Growts, etc. pretty much ALL of my gardening, if measured from a simple cost to yield analysis is irrational, I would probably save money in the long run giving in turning all outside growth over to nature or the gardeners and simply buying whatever produce I needed at the farmers market). I grew Bitter melons once year and I actively LOATHE the taste of those as does pretty much everyone else I know (at least the ones, who have had actually tried it!) Ive tried growing patches of small grains and I live in the suburbs. I planted upwards of 500 corn kernels in my vegeatble garden knowing that it can ultimately hold a maxium of 16 plants! (this last one in a cosmic twist of fate actually proved to be a good thing as the squirrels seem to have gone crazy over the stuff and probalby have dug up and eaten 90% of the seed so if I had overplanted so ludicrously I'd probably have no corn at all. That reminds me since your're growing the same cancha stuff if you have squirrels dont wait for the plants to come up, put up you fences netting now!). The biggest watermelon I've ever managed to grow was about the size of a small basketball and baseball sized ones are more my norm (whic his fine with me as it means I can eat the whole melon at one sitting and not have to worry about the leftovers going bad) Half my houseplants are small tropical fruit trees which I grew from seed despite the fact I know that I will likey NEVER live somewhere where I can plant said trees in the ground and have them grow to a size where they can actually make fruit for me (you can't get jackfruit off a tree 3-4 ft tall). Believe me I KNOW from irrational gardening.

Hrstio as mentioned most winter melon is used to make winter melon soup. There are probably as many recipes for this as their are makers (just google around until you find one that sounds to you taste and cooking skill level) but the two basics versions you tend to bump into (assuming you decide you live close to a major city and want to go out, find a "fancy" Chinese resturaunt and taste the stuff before comitting). The more common one is usally referrto to as a subgum or an eight precios ingrediants version, which tends to be a chicken/pork based stock with winter melon shrimpy chicken peas, egg white, ham cubes and other odds and ends. The second version (which I prefer, and which you are unlikey to bump into unless you happen to find a resturaunt that specializes in Shanghai cuisine, is also a chicken/pork stock based soup (many Chinese soups are) with winter melong chunks and pieces of Chinese Ham (which is a dry ham, sorof of like Prosciutto cruda or Spanish jabugo but a lot saltier) this recipie is pretty close provied you up the ham content (and put in uch bigger chunks) and elave out the dried scallops

www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Winter-Melon-Soup-233787

as for the hairy gourd (your giant cucumber) I usally just treat those like Zuccinni they cook about the same (though hairy goud tends to be a little wetter)