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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 15, 2010 21:22:13 GMT -5
This was my first year growing the blush savoy San Michele cabbage and surprise me, they made it out the other side of the snow drift with nice firm heads.
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Post by raymondo on Mar 16, 2010 2:53:13 GMT -5
Aren't brassicas amazing? So tough.
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Post by extremegardener on Mar 21, 2010 13:50:42 GMT -5
OG - I love San Michele - it's such a beautiful cabbage, great tasting, too. When did you sow it, and how big were the heads going into the winter? I've never had it over-winter, but I only tried to once.
I keep trying to figure out what the optimal size or level of "maturity" is for brassicas to survive the winter. It's so hard to tell because there are so many factors involved. Probably bigger is better (intuitively, it would seem so - more mass that the cold has to penetrate) ... but I'm not so sure. I am trialing a bunch of different b. oleracea suspected to be winter hardy. I sowed them late August, and transplanted into the garden in October, so they went into winter as large seedlings, adolescents , shall we say... I'll know more in April... Any thoughts on this?
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 21, 2010 19:35:11 GMT -5
Interesting question. The San Michele in question were sown very early, around mid-April or so and were a couple weeks old at the time. I'm with you in needing to do more trialing to determine what is the best age for overwintering. Largest heads sometimes suffer from a lot of damage - water content? However, the S.M. that I left to see if they would make it through were single serving size, about the size of a grapefruit.
I'll post a picture soon. Too bad they don't normally make it through for you. I was quite surprised! Maybe it was a particularly friendly year.
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Post by canadamike on Mar 21, 2010 22:52:16 GMT -5
I find it very interesting that an italian cabbage makes it through the winter...but then...is it really an italian one...in Europe, they have so many different names for the same veggies.
I have no doubt though that MILAN DE PONTOISE, also called JANUARY KING in the USA would have made it in this exceptionaly mild winter, which did beat the mildest winter on records by far, winter 2008-2009...
Savoys are always ending up more cold tolerant. My hypothesis is that the air pockets in the heads do help...
''The times they are a changin''' Bob Dylan
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 22, 2010 8:00:44 GMT -5
Interesting theory about the air pockets and worth further exploration / observation. Anyone else done winter trialing in cold snowy climes?
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 22, 2010 12:27:33 GMT -5
San Michele overwintered head: Purple colouration is cold related. It's a 'blush' savoy.
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Post by extremegardener on Mar 25, 2010 16:44:28 GMT -5
I have no doubt though that MILAN DE PONTOISE, also called JANUARY KING in the USA would have made it in this exceptionaly mild winter, which did beat the mildest winter on records by far, winter 2008-2009... Savoys are always ending up more cold tolerant. My hypothesis is that the air pockets in the heads do help... Absolutely right Michel - January King had the best overwintering performance this year for me (as far as I can tell now), both mature heading plants, and adolescents. I don't like to make a sure call on brassica winter survival until we get to May and new growth is established, but our snow is pretty much gone now - a very very mild winter here indeed. We did not get near our usual low of -30F (-34C), I think we only got down to -10F (-23C). Still, the ground froze and I was concerned because we had so little snow cover. Usually we get so much snow that the ground is well insulated when the temps get very low. The air pocket hypothesis sounds right... I had at least one savoy (green - Col de Milan) in this year's overwintering trials that I included just for yucks, not expecting hardiness from a crinkly Italian. I didn't know about savoys being hardier... Anyway, Col de Milan is looking good out there so far - I wasn't really expecting anything from it, and it seems to have survived better than Offenham 3, the "winter" strain of a British overwintering cabbage, which doesn't look alive at this point. I also grew the "spring" strain Offenham 2, which may be alive, and seems to be hardier than the "winter" strain, which is sort of counter-intuitive until you think about it. I guess the Spring strain would have to be hardier than the Winter strain, or it wouldn't survive until spring... maybe.... or?
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Post by canadamike on Mar 25, 2010 18:57:12 GMT -5
I think winter or spring strains of many things are often more a matter of Days to Maturity than anything else....do not forget one thing...winter lettuce or cabbage or wheat or...or...or... are mostly europeans. Coming from where we live, you and I could go out having fun outside naked for 15 minutes in a lot of their ''cold'' days while they are wearing parkas and complaining about the cold I know, I have a french girlfriend There is winter and then there is winter....
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 25, 2010 19:59:53 GMT -5
Yeah winter seemed to have missed us this year.
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Post by canadamike on Mar 25, 2010 20:44:59 GMT -5
Yep, I totally agree.
But it will come back...look, we where outside in t-shirts today and it is gonna be minus 15 tonight, minus 30 with the windchill factor.....I look at these phenomenons through a commercial, although organic, vegetable producer.
This winter we had is no certainty plants can survive, by that I mean the ''edgy ones''. You do not need a huge cold winter to kill a plant, you need ONE hugely cold day...climate change can give us much milder days, but if we get ONE minus 45 one many plants are doomed...
We are in spring, were outside almost naked today and will get minus 30 tonight...
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 25, 2010 21:10:46 GMT -5
We're only getting -12 to -14C tonight in Ottawa with a windchill down to -20. I was wearing my coat today but we will back up again to -2 by tomorrow afternoon and then the positive double digits by mid next week! The rocky road to spring.
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Post by extremegardener on Mar 26, 2010 12:22:06 GMT -5
Yes, we're expecting your -15C tonight, then warming. It will probably wipe out all the brassicas... we have only a light dusting of snow. We have had a couple of naked-outside days, but as Michel points out, that's all relative. There are those of us who get a bad case of the Februaries and have been known to go skiing naked... ;-) OG, did San Michel make it through the freeze?
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 26, 2010 13:19:36 GMT -5
We have no snow at all. The San Michele seems to have made it. I"ll check it again tomorrow to see if mush is setting in.
Februaries... I think I was afflicted by that as a child in Victoria... but then again that's not REALLY February.
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