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Post by robertb on May 15, 2011 12:21:03 GMT -5
What temperatures did they tolerate without the snow covering? 9-star perennial is quite short-lived, so it could be a comination of age and temperature which killed them. It may be best to take a few cuttings each year.
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Post by ottawagardener on May 15, 2011 12:51:24 GMT -5
Certainly below 0. Probably around -10C ?? I'll have to do some experiments as I wasn't paying that much attention. I had 9star live the winter only to die in the spring when the snow melted. Actually that was the same as the larger perennial kale. I'll have to try cuttings of 9 star.
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Post by mybighair on Nov 27, 2011 1:55:29 GMT -5
It's long past time for this update as the seedlings have come on quite a bit since these photographs were taken, but here it is all the same. First up are the The Daubenton X Tree Collard seedlings.  As you can see they came on well and were about a 1ft tall when the pictures were taken, some plants grew bushier than others but all are more branching than the Tree Collard. The red ribbed plants show some colour on the older leaves, and they are now on par with the other seedlings as far as vigor is concerned. These seedlings are now over 3ft tall and about 2ft wide, they resemble the Tree Collard in practically every respect, the only differences being the colour of the foliage in the green seedlings and their slightly more branching habit. Next up the The Daubenton X (Black Tuscany X Varigated Collards).  Quite a mixed bag with these seedlings. All show their 'Black Tuscany' heritage in their leaf colour and texture, they are still split 50/50 for variation, and the majority are very close to Daubenton in habit, but a little more leggy. Growth is about 1ft high and 2ft wide right now. All but one have flowered and produced seed, and all have (so far) survived flowering and are putting on new growth. The plant pictured is the non flowering exception. This plant is much larger in every respect than it's siblings. It has huge leaves, 16in or more long and about 12 wide, the stems are thick and a little less branching than Daubenton, and it's about 3-4ft tall and wide. This one is actually my favorite seedling so far, and I can see it becoming a permanent fixture if it proves to be perennial. And last up, the Daubenton X Red Kale.  These seedlings are much more uniform than the others, all have dark green wavy edged leaves, purple stems and leaf midribs, and an upright habit. As can be seen in the picture, bout 50% flowered at about 1ft high, all the flowering plants produced seed, with about 98% of the flowering plant surviving to put on new growth. They are now about 4ft high and 2-3ft wide. Strangely they rather resemble the Tree Collard in growth habit, putting up 4-5 stems from the base of the plant. And at this point I couldn't tell the flowering plants from the non flowering ones if I hadn't marked those that flowered with bamboo canes. So, as far as I can tell right now Daubenton appears to have some dominant genes for perenniality, some/one of which appears to suppress flowering. I think more observation of these seedlings and the F2 generation will be needed before I can make any firm conclusions. For now I'm fairly pleased with how things are looking. I may already have some new forms of perennial kale amongst my F1's. And the continued growth of the flowering plants offers hope of new, diverse, seed producing perennial kale's. I just hope my luck holds out on this one. |
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Post by raymondo on Nov 27, 2011 3:06:22 GMT -5
Excellent developments. Thanks for the update.
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Post by cortona on Nov 27, 2011 11:19:56 GMT -5
the cross with lacinato black kale are impressive! realy realy good!
let us know the news wen something happens!
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Post by stevil on Nov 29, 2011 5:02:38 GMT -5
Excellent developments.
By the way, I got hold of Taunton Deane this summer and can share cuttings hopefully next summer if you are interested. There's a sign at Knightshayes that says that they have sent cuttings all over the country. The Heritage Seed Library also sent me seed propagated Cottager's Kale which seems to originate from seed offered by Suffolk Herbs until fairly recently.
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 29, 2011 8:23:32 GMT -5
I am fascinated by this project of yours, especially in the shorter varieties as they work better in our climate. Being closer to the ground means they would be more likely to be covered in snow and therefore overwinter well. The black kale cross is beautiful!
Looking forward to hearing more.
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Post by mybighair on Dec 3, 2011 11:55:05 GMT -5
cortona,
I'm hoping the Daubenton X (Black Tuscany X Varigated Collards) throw up a good compact perennial seedling in the F2. I'd like to get more Black Tuscany genes in this line if I can recover the right seedling for back crossing.
stevil,
I'd love to get hold of Taunton Deane, haven't had much luck yet though. When your plant is big enough I'd be up for a trade. I'm interested to see the growth habit of Taunton Deane first hand. I looks to be similar to my F1 seedlings from these crosses and I cant help wondering if it resulted from Daubenton cross at some time in the past.
ottawa,
I'd like to see Daubenton's bushy compact growth recovered in the F2 from all these crosses. Daubenton is such a productive plant, and isn't to sprawling. If we can just get a bit more variety in this type of perennial kale I can see it being of interest to a lot more people.
Just another two or three years and I may have what I'm looking for from this cross. Then it's just a mater of getting it out to other people.
I just love plant breeding.
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Post by cortona on Dec 3, 2011 13:55:41 GMT -5
wel, a question from you guys that have more experience with d'aubenton cabage, i've two plant that come from a fellow that post here, it grow realy poorly for me....the two plants are no mopre tan 50 cm hig and with little leaf... is it normal or the realy realy hot summer and the drought weater is the problem?
hope to cross it someday with my lacinato kale, but i think that it is realy complicate...let see what happens!
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Post by robertb on Dec 4, 2011 13:03:45 GMT -5
I had two varieties sent to me at different times this year. Variegated Daubenton's was sent last spring, got off to a good start, while Taunton Deane came in midsummer, and sulked. Our summer here was anything but hot, but it was extremely dry. I think the drought has to the be explanation.
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Post by cortona on Dec 4, 2011 13:53:16 GMT -5
thanks robertb here drought during sumer is almost usual so or it adapt and recover in autmn and winter or i think it is a loser in my climate
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Post by robertb on Dec 13, 2011 15:30:04 GMT -5
The HSL are offering Daubenton's seed in the current catalogue; I asked them about it, and this is what they had to say:
The Daubenton kale is, indeed, the kale that you mention. The information below are references we have found to this old, perennial variety:
"Daubention’s Kale – Xerox is from J. W. Boyce’s 1986 catalogue [in file] – the name was subsequently changed to Daubenton, but the variety has since been dropped.
Daubenton’s Creeping Borecole. Stalks 4 or 5 feet in height or length. The leaves are nearly 2 feet long, deep green; the leaf stems are long and flexible. It sometimes takes root where the stem rests upon the surface of the ground, and, on this account has been called perennial. The variety is hardy, and yields abundantly; though, in this last respect, it is inferior to the Thousand-Headed.
Fearing Burr: Field and garden vegetables of America, 1865, p.225
Allied to the Buda kale is the Perennial Daubenton Kale, a kind of Colza with an almost woody and branching stem, which continues to grow for 4 or 5 years, some only of the branches flowering every year, while the rest go on growing and producing leaves. Of all the cultivated cabbages, this one comes nearest to the wild cabbage of the sea coasts of Western Europe, one of the distinctive characteristics of which is that it produces flowers only at the extremities of some of the branches, the rest of the plant continuing to increase in size, while other branches are preparing to come into flower in the following year.
Vilmorin-Andrieux: The vegetable garden, p.141-142
Dorbenton Kale – We are pleased to supply this very old variety of Kale that was previously thought to grow only from Cuttings. One row will give you a canopy three feet wide of delicious tasty young green shoots during the winter.
Catalogue of J. W. Boyce, 1986
The names Daubenton, Daubenton's and Dorbenton have all been used to describe this kale. We have never heard it described as sterile, though it is very difficult to get it to produce seed and vegetative propagation is the more usual way.
Naturally, I've asked for some. It's going to be interesting to see if it's another variety; at the very least, there has probably been some selection for seed bearing.
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Post by mybighair on Dec 14, 2011 11:08:39 GMT -5
Sounds promising.
I've heard of an old gardener that had a form of Daubenton that could be induced to flower by "treating it badly" so there would appear to be forms that flower more readily than others.
I'd be interested to see the results from these seed, please keep us informed.
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Post by robertb on Dec 14, 2011 12:32:11 GMT -5
I will. Hopefully I'll have plants going in die course.
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Post by cortona on Mar 28, 2012 16:16:43 GMT -5
as i've write in an old post here i have two plants of daubenton kindly gived to me by another member, it grows poorly for me the past summer and autumn but this spring.... one is growing happily but the poorest one, the bad loking one..... start to flower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes it start some flowerbuds, probably the drought, the unusually cold winter(for the usual standard) give it the imput to start flowering, in my garden i have lacinato cale that are start to flowering , broccoli, and broccolo romanesco at the same stage, if it really flower i wil try to pollinate the flowers with lacinato kale that is perfectly adapted to my climate in order to have more perenniality in the lacinato kale (that are a short perennial here)i wil try to make some photos of the flowers and have the luck to be at home at the right time to do the work and not let the bees have all the fun!
Mybighair wath news from your seedlings?
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