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Post by atash on Feb 19, 2011 13:23:03 GMT -5
Not the same, but I was once under the same impression because of some misinformation that was accidentally spread. I have seen both and I have the tree collard.
Walking stick cabbages might be perennializeable but they are biennial, bloom, and do produce seed. They are also significantly taller, but usually only produce one stem. They were reputedly NOT bred for human food, but are reputedly strong-tasting and fibrous, and were originally used as livestock feed.
The "tree collard' branches fairly freely. It is not as tall as the walking stick cabbage (in the USA we would call those "collards"). It has smaller leaves, and the leaves look intermediate between what Americans call Kale and what we call Collards. Its leaves are quite palatable to humans, raw or cooked.
Just to be clear, when I say "Collard" I mean a non-heading cabbage, and when I say "Kale", I am referring to a leafier, more salady-plant that has thinner, often purple leaves. I have heard people refer to what I call "collards" as a Kale, and I suspect that there is some different usage.
I think the tree collard is probably the same plant as the d'Aubenton; I suspect Jean Jeavons or one of his associates brought it over from Europe. BertieFox, do you know the history of this plant? I am very curious to know its origins, and am suspicious that it is a partially-sterile hybrid. It rarely blooms.
I wonder if that is why it is perennial. Blooming and setting seed seems to be what triggers senescence and dying.
I am also curious to know what happened to the plant that bloomed, and whether the seedlings are perennial.
That said, THREE of my Western Fronts have survived blooming!
Temperatures are rising, and at least one or two of them, maybe all 3 (a little nip and tuck here), will probably make it all the way to spring. I need at least 2 plants to survive, as they are self-incompatible. I plan on giving them some fertilizer, weeding around them, and letting them bloom again, on the theory that their descendants will be selected for greater longevity.
Just to be clear, their tissues DID go senescent, it's just that they produced some surviving buds at the base that have continued growing after the main shoot died. They are weak. But they did produce some, when most of their siblings did not produce any surviving buds.
I would hazard a guess that the next generation will have only slightly more propensity for surviving blooming than the previous. But, I could plant them on a significantly larger scale this autumn, and keep repeating the process, until I get plants that reliably survive blooming.
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Post by stevil on Feb 19, 2011 13:51:50 GMT -5
d'Aubenton and the Tree Collard I have have completely different habits (see the picture I posted on the previous page showing both d'Aubentons and Tree Collard). Definitely not the same!
Yes, Tree Collard is much smaller than Jersey Kales/Walking Stick Cabbages (which also are referred to as Tree Collards, e.g., in the SSE yearbook.)
Did your Western Front Kales also flower in the first year, Rob? I think it was you that sent me seed?
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Post by atash on Feb 19, 2011 15:22:10 GMT -5
I think I did send you some seed, but now that I think about it you got some of the seed I started with, not the next generation. I could send some of the next generation after the one I have now, which might be slightly longer-lived and more valuable. Less diverse though.  Let me take a closer look at the D'Aubenton pix. Someone else posted one somewhere that looked like mine, which is what provoked the comment. But sometimes hard to judge from pix. |
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Post by atash on Feb 19, 2011 15:34:46 GMT -5
I can't tell from the pix. Definitely similar. Mine are more purple-leaved (mine are very purple, especially in cool weather, doesn't even have to be really cold), but color means nothing.
Might be siblings.
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Post by trixtrax on Feb 20, 2011 1:03:52 GMT -5
@ stevil About the metamorphasis of the name d'Aubenton. From my understanding d'Aubenton was a seeded variety found in market gardens in France going way back, it was known to flower, just not in the standard second or third year as is now standard. This is the plight of Brassica oleracea types that had flowering patterns that did not fit in with the "rigors" of the market garden economy, they sadly vanished over time. Dorbenton is a type of d'Aubenton that is a inbred selfed form of the d'Aubenton. I was told this from an old gardener that had been growing various perennial Brassica oleracea. Sadly, I have lost her contact info and she also had the unfortunate luck of having her garden of Brassica's destroyed. She said that she once went to France to meet with an old man (90's) that was said to be the last maintaining the seeded line. I talked with her circa 2004 and I think she said she hadn't heard from him. I suspect this was also true Purple Tree Collards. I once had two types of this, one traced back to John Jeavons that had received it from other people growing it in northern California. It was brought over from England. Another type I received from Orcas Island in northern Washington. This came from an old English woman who'd been growing it in her garden for many years. This type looked slightly more variegated and purpled up less in cold weather. They were growing side-by-side. There are many factors at play of course so I cannot say with absolute certainity that they weren't or were the same clone. raymondo The quick answer is that there are many B. napus types. The two most common are White Russian which is Brassica oleracea x Brassica rapa (fodder leaf type). This is white veined. Then when this is crossed with Brassica nigra which adds color genetics to give Red in the Red Russian (well to give it its purple-red hues  ) The inclusion of Brassica nigra also morphs the hairs on the White Russian which become instead little leaflets that extend off the main leaf. This drastically increases the surface area of each leaf by making it more 3-dimensional and this is probably a factor into why Red Russian is so productive. This natural design traps more light since light travels in curves and reflects. The longer answer. Tim Peters Seed and Research used to have an informative page about Brassica napus that unfortunately no longer exists. There is other info about Red Russian's parents in the scientific literature, though off the top of my head I cannot think of a good reference that says it outright. However, there are quite a few papers that seem to assume this about B. napus (Red Russian types) in that they are often using Brassica napus 'Red Russian' as compatibility bridges between other closely related genera since they seem to be quite compatible with these other closely related genera. The thought is that this is because Red Russian has essentially collected together enough genetic material from each of evolutionary lines of the Triangle of U as to be very close genetically to the ancestor of the Brassica genus and apparently other related ancestor genera as well. I will paste some info about Brassica genetics onto this thread a few days from now. In fact, Tim Peters developed a variety called "Winter Red" as a proof that Red Russian had three parents. Tim made the crosses again to show that Red Russian is a composite of three species of the triangle of U. Here is a link to the Triangle of U: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_of_U. It is actually not a heirloom per se like the classic Red Russian strains (which is typically crossed up with White Russian types anyway..) but a new instance of a Red Russian strain redeveloped. Though this does not make it bad in anyway, because it should actually have more diversity in the population than a normal Red Russian population, since multiple parents from each species were used, while the historic Red Russian possibly came from rare chance wild crosses, once to create White Russian than another chance cross sometime in the future with Brassica nigra to create Red Russian. This is believed to have happened once or only a couple times in the middle ages and since then humanity has been saving seeds of this line. Basically the take home bit of knowledge is that all or most of members of the Brassica genus can intercross readily in many ways. Also many related genera outside of Brassica can cross to the members of the Triangle of U they are most closely related to ... like Rapistrum, Erucastrum, Orychophragmus, Eruca, Diplotaxis, Sinapsis, Raphanus, and Crambe. Not every species within these genera, some have become their own thing, but a surprising number still can! Here are some examples. In a conversation, Tim Peters said that Western Front was a Red Russian mix that also had a perennial type of Brassica nigra added into the mix. Another variety he developed called Gulag Stars is Red Russian crossed back in with Brassica rapa again and maybe some other wild Brassica species. Another type, Bear necessities is great for salad bags because it is so skeletal and colorful. This is grexed Red Russian, frilly mizuna (Brassica juncea which in turn is *basically* Brassica nigra x Brassica rapa), and a skeletal leaved Brassica nigra. I am doing a growout of Bear Necessities this year. The Pentland brig I have has about 1/5 of its seeds colored yellow like Sinapis alba (yellow mustard) they are also the size of yellow mustard seeds, many of the seeds that otherwise look like typical Brassica oleracea are outside the size range I see with B. oleracea and closer in size to Sinapis alba. This one is only an educated guess. European radish can, if coaxed, cross in a normal backyard way with Brassica oleracea, the results from scientists that have already done this show that the progeny collects all sorts of wild traits and the plant becomes a better weed than food. Mediterranean/European radishes look surprisingly different than Asian radishes. They are claimed to be the same species and they do cross, however it is believed that at some time in the past, perhaps in the wild, perhaps in a field, asian radish when it was taken over into the Mediterranean crossed with something like Hirschfeldia incana inparting the rounder root and small fuzzy leaves. This is my guess here, but where did kohlrabi come from? It appeared in Asia rather recently in human history and have come from a marrowstem type Brassica olearacea collard x Brassica juncea tumida. Brassica juncea tumida also called Zha Cai is from Northen China and is an ancient crop and probably the ancestor of Bok Choy. I wrote about Zha Cai last year here: alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=brassica&action=display&thread=4275Zha cai is interesting because the plant has an interesting bulbous swelling at the base of the plant. It tastes I guess like bok choy kohlrabi. Also, the wild form was perhaps perennial. Then where did the recent appearance of rutabaga's come from? Perhaps it has something to do with a kohlrabi x turnip? Rutabaga only appears in Europe *after* kohlrabi makes it's way to Europe. What do you think? Tim Peters should really weigh in on all this... -- Walking stick is different from Tree Collards that's for sure. I have two theories on this. Either there are/were perennial varieties or they are simply perennial closer to the equator? Some Brassicas will live as a perennial further south while not in northern latitudes - might be a survival stategy - when the going gets tough seed, when the things are easy grow grow grow. Perhaps the perennial tree kales in South America are only perennial because they do not understand really long day-lengths? Here's a link: agro.biodiver.se/2009/10/perennial-kales-in-ecuador/On Maui, I did not get to see this, but I was told of a garden where the Purple Tree Collards, or something similar to it, grew as like a liana vine way into the trees and had never flowered and was not very purple, but when a cutting was taken to Washington it resumed being bushy and turned purple in the cold. Or that's my take on it - what do you think? |
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Post by stevil on Feb 20, 2011 4:41:15 GMT -5
@ stevil About the metamorphasis of the name d'Aubenton. From my understanding d'Aubenton was a seeded variety found in market gardens in France going way back, it was known to flower, just not in the standard second or third year as is now standard. This is the plight of Brassica oleracea types that had flowering patterns that did not fit in with the "rigors" of the market garden economy, they sadly vanished over time. Dorbenton is a type of d'Aubenton that is a inbred selfed form of the d'Aubenton. I was told this from an old gardener that had been growing various perennial Brassica oleracea. Sadly, I have lost her contact info and she also had the unfortunate luck of having her garden of Brassica's destroyed. She said that she once went to France to meet with an old man (90's) that was said to be the last maintaining the seeded line. I talked with her circa 2004 and I think she said she hadn't heard from him. I suspect this was also true Purple Tree Collards. I once had two types of this, one traced back to John Jeavons that had received it from other people growing it in northern California. It was brought over from England. Another type I received from Orcas Island in northern Washington. This came from an old English woman who'd been growing it in her garden for many years. This type looked slightly more variegated and purpled up less in cold weather. They were growing side-by-side. There are many factors at play of course so I cannot say with absolute certainity that they weren't or were the same clone. Walking stick is different from Tree Collards that's for sure. I have two theories on this. Either there are/were perennial varieties or they are simply perennial closer to the equator? Some Brassicas will live as a perennial further south while not in northern latitudes - might be a survival stategy - when the going gets tough seed, when the things are easy grow grow grow. Perhaps the perennial tree kales in South America are only perennial because they do not understand really long day-lengths? Here's a link: agro.biodiver.se/2009/10/perennial-kales-in-ecuador/On Maui, I did not get to see this, but I was told of a garden where the Purple Tree Collards, or something similar to it, grew as like a liana vine way into the trees and had never flowered and was not very purple, but when a cutting was taken to Washington it resumed being bushy and turned purple in the cold. Chris: Many thanks for spending time on this! The link back to the UK is interesting. However, I don’t recall seeing any reference to it being known in Europe? Perhaps it came from Africa via England (see below). I’ve read several places that it is said to have originated in Africa and been passed on within African-American communities in the US (is there any hard evidence for this?). This is repeated on the following page where the purple tree collard was appointed the official green of the city of Richmond (in July last year)  See wildcatfarmers.wordpress.com/resources/plants-under-construction/purple-tree-collard-proclamation/I had a quick look at the Prota document on Brassica oleracea in Africa (see database.prota.org/PROTAhtml/Brassica%20oleracea%20(leaf%20cabbage)_En.htm ) and I found the following: “Types of Brassica oleracea with tall plants grown for repeated leaf pickings are popular everywhere in East and southern Africa, but less common in Central Africa and rare in West Africa.”Two vegetatively propagated forms are recognised: “Rugare: vegetatively propagated, rarely by seed (flowers only at high altitudes and after some degree of vernalization); plants 2–3 m tall, for repeated leaf pickings, white flowering; many small shoots developing at the base and lower internodes (hence also called thousand-headed cabbage); long life and harvest season; pale blue-green and somewhat curly leaves, but clones available with different leaf colour.
– Viscose: a selection from ‘rugare’ that has gained popularity for commercial production with repeated leaf pickings because of its improved hardiness in the field; vegetatively propagated, rarely by seed (segregates into different types); leaves darker green and more pronouncedly curled than ‘rugare’, some clones in between ‘rugare’ and ‘viscose’.”
+++ – Sukuma wiki: mostly propagated by seed, sometimes vegetatively; plant habit close to ‘rugare’; for repeated leaf pickings, yellow flowering; rare in Zimbabwe, but the most common type in East African countries; heterogeneous, often from local seed.
+++Vegetatively propagated types do not flower easily and grow indeterminately if flowering is not induced by growing them at high altitudes or by artificial vernalization. |
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Post by stevil on Feb 20, 2011 4:46:26 GMT -5
Concerning Dorbenton and d’Aubenton – isn’t the pronunciation the same? The two would then be easily mixed up.....
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Post by raymondo on Feb 20, 2011 5:19:19 GMT -5
Concerning Dorbenton and d’Aubenton – isn’t the pronunciation the same? The two would then be easily mixed up..... For an English speaker wouldn't it depend on the variety of English they spoke? For some, I'd imagine, it would be the same, for others, not. Irish or American for example. In French they are quite different, regardless of the variety of French spoken I think. |
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Post by trixtrax on Feb 20, 2011 5:35:16 GMT -5
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Post by trixtrax on Feb 20, 2011 5:57:12 GMT -5
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Post by stevil on Feb 20, 2011 11:00:51 GMT -5
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Post by stevil on Feb 20, 2011 11:07:27 GMT -5
Concerning Dorbenton and d’Aubenton – isn’t the pronunciation the same? The two would then be easily mixed up..... For an English speaker wouldn't it depend on the variety of English they spoke? For some, I'd imagine, it would be the same, for others, not. Irish or American for example. In French they are quite different, regardless of the variety of French spoken I think. Yes, I meant for a native english speaker... |
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Post by ottawagardener on Feb 20, 2011 12:42:11 GMT -5
d'Aubenton: I would pronounce this Do-ben-ten. Though, from my time in the UK, I noted that their 'r' is often very soft so I suppose Dorbenton could be a variation? Anyhow, I have mostly noticed d'Aubenton becoming Daubenton which doesn't surprise me as English speakers aren't used to ' in names in my experience.
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Post by robertb on Feb 20, 2011 13:48:53 GMT -5
I'd pronounce all three spellings in the same way. The apostrophe in the middle of a name doesn't exist in our English, so you're quite right, it does disappear, and 'de' will become joined to the rest of the name as well. So d'Arcy becomes Darcy, and deSpencer becomes Despenser.
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Post by stevil on Feb 20, 2011 14:59:00 GMT -5
As I said I got hold of the Dutch paper which Trixtrax referenced earlier. The paper is from 1996 by scientists at the Agricultural University in Wageningen in the Netherlands www.actahort.org/books/407/407_5.htmReference is given to an earlier paper from 1989 on this disappearing Dutch perennial kale. It rarely flowers, some plants never, others irregularly. Comparisons of growing the same clones in greenhouses and outside produced inconclusive results - some clones flowered only in the greenhouse, others only outside. They had collected 66 accessions of this perennial kale from the Limburg area. The plant's morphology isn't described (perhaps in the earlier paper?). Another paper is referenced by Brok and Zeven, 1988: Eeuwig moes, splijtmoes en splijtkool. De laatste taalkundige sporen van een verdwijnend Limburgs gewas.Veldeke. 63, 9-12 Google translate turns the title into: ”Eternal puree, puree splits coal and nuclear fuel. The last traces of a disappearing language Limburg crop”……..Doesn’t sound very tasty, does it? Attentive readers will recognise the Eeuwig Moes in the title as the alternative name for what Frank has called Ehwiger Kohl (which is the German name) probably earlier in this same thread if I could be bothered to look. I haven’t managed to propagate the cuttings Frank gave me, but it’s low growing and spreads sideways like d’Aubenton. I took a picture in Frank’s garden (below) – this was in October, so not at its most picturesque (couldn't find other pictures on the forum) Back to the paper, nothing seems to be known of its history, but old interviewees tell that their parents grew it. It is claimed (references are given to correspondents) that it also being grown in England, in Ireland where it is known as Hungry Gap, in Scotland (as Cut-and-come-again) and France (Brest, Argenteuil) as well as Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Brazil (from Portugal) and Haiti! I wonder how much of this material was actually seen? Anyone know whether Hungry Gap is perennial? Does it look like Ehwiger? 54 of the clones were analysed for 4 enzymes, purple pigmentation of the leaves and flowering behaviour. The analysis suggested that there were actually 8 phenotypes in the material! I hope the collection representing the main types is maintained somewhere (still at Wageningen?) or is it now lost? Attachments:
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) The inclusion of Brassica nigra also morphs the hairs on the White Russian which become instead little leaflets that extend off the main leaf. This drastically increases the surface area of each leaf by making it more 3-dimensional and this is probably a factor into why Red Russian is so productive. This natural design traps more light since light travels in curves and reflects. 
