Parsley worms, Hated, Tolerated or Welcomed

[blueadzuki]

Hi everyone

After some comments on butterfly raising in one of the other threads I though the following poll would be fun. How do you feel about Parsely Worms, i.e. the Caterpillars of the Eastern Black Swallowtail, Papilio polyxenes (If you live on the East coast of the US) or Anise Swallotails, Papilio zelicaon if you live in one the west (for those on this forum who live outside of the Continental US fell free to add your opinion but if you happend to know the species name of the kind of butterfly(ies) that eat your fennel and other carrot relatives let me know as I would be interested in finding out) I have singled these two species out as they seem to be the commonest ones that we gardeners tend to encounter that we might be in conflict with (since pretty as they are, they can basically eat a whole patch of fennel, dill, parsely or carrot to the ground) and there really arent that many other butterfly caterpillars that could really be counted as serios pests, At least here in the US (if you grow a lot of crucifers I imagine you may have issues with some of the whites and Tiger swallowtails and Giant Sulphurs are supposed to have the possibility of being trouble if you grow a lot of citrus, but most of the others food plants of choice seem to be either native wild plants or ornamentals or to not count as being real problem pests for one reason or another)

Answer 1 if you absoultely HATE parsely worms, if you remove any ones you see on your plants and/or spray them to try and kill the things.

Answer 2 if you TOLERATE them if you are more or less ambivalent basically leaving any of the ones you see alone but leaving it like that

Answer 3 if (like me) you WELCOME parsley worms; if you go out of your way to induce them to show up and make thier little squiggly lives as pleasant and rich as possible; if you plant extra dill and fennel just to try and induce more mother butterflies to lay their eggs on your property if you collect additional caterpillars and seed them onto you plants. if you net off plants just to keep the birds away etc.

Have fun!

[plantsnobin]

I will start out by saying this-I am more of an ornamental gardener than a veggie gardener. And I have 2 acres, so plenty of room to plant things just for the butterflies, so I do try to understand that there are others out there who don't have a lot of room, and may not feel the same way I do. I let bronze fennel seed around for the larva. I have Dictamnus just for the giant swallowtails, I erased all my pics of them, but will take more when the lay. The larva of those look like a blob of bird poop. I have lots of Asclepias of various species for the monarchs. Spicebush-Lindera benzoin for the spicebush swallowtail, I have to say that of all the larva I have around here, I think that the spicebush swallowtail in the pretties cat there is. Aristolochias for the pipevine swallowtails. The photos I posted showing my hand turning over a leaf is pipevine babies. May not show well in the pic, but you may be able to see the little orange 'horns' sticking out, called the osmeterium. When they feel threatened, they stick that out and it smells bad. Paw Paws for the Tiger swallowtail, on and on.
Sadly, there aren't many butterflies here yet this year. It is a case of what people do in their corner of the world having an effect on yours. People keep spraying this and that to kill everything, even before they know if it is truly a pest-means fewer butterflies in your garden too. Oh, and if you really want to make butterflies happy-put out a shallow dish of wet poo-I use rabbit. They love rabbit poo and you will find them 'puddling'. Sorry to ramble, but I love my butterfly babies. My sister in law has a daycare and every year I set her up with larva so the kids can watch the process. Their parents love it as much as the kids, and maybe it will make someone think before they reach for the poison spray.

[blueadzuki]

Thanks for being repyler #1

May 28, 2010 15:27:15 GMT -5 @plantsnobin said:

I will start out by saying this-I am more of an ornamental gardener than a veggie gardener. And I have 2 acres, so plenty of room to plant things just for the butterflies, so I do try to understand that there are others out there who don't have a lot of room, and may not feel the same way I do. I let bronze fennel seed around for the larva. I have Dictamnus just for the giant swallowtails, I erased all my pics of them, but will take more when the lay. The larva of those look like a blob of bird poop..

As do most swallowtail caterpillars, at least for the first few molts

May 28, 2010 15:27:15 GMT -5 @plantsnobin said:

I have lots of Asclepias of various species for the monarchs. Spicebush-Lindera benzoin for the spicebush swallowtail, I have to say that of all the larva I have around here, I think that the spicebush swallowtail in the pretties cat there is.

I agree wholeheartedly, the year I found a spicebrush caterpillar was probably the most fun rasing year I had, by the time the reach last molt they look like a living cartoon character. Sadly since I did that raising they built an addional house near where I live and in the process, clear cut the entire spicebrush grove near me so the days of being able to raise those are probably gone for me

May 28, 2010 15:27:15 GMT -5 @plantsnobin said:

Aristolochias for the pipevine swallowtails. The photos I posted showing my hand turning over a leaf is pipevine babies. May not show well in the pic, but you may be able to see the little orange 'horns' sticking out, called the osmeterium. When they feel threatened, they stick that out and it smells bad. Paw Paws for the Tiger swallowtail, on and on.
Sadly, there aren't many butterflies here yet this year. It is a case of what people do in their corner of the world having an effect on yours. People keep spraying this and that to kill everything, even before they know if it is truly a pest-means fewer butterflies in your garden too. Oh, and if you really want to make butterflies happy-put out a shallow dish of wet poo-I use rabbit. They love rabbit poo and you will find them 'puddling'. Sorry to ramble, but I love my butterfly babies. My sister in law has a daycare and every year I set her up with larva so the kids can watch the process. Their parents love it as much as the kids, and maybe it will make someone think before they reach for the poison spray.

Its pretty spare near me to, I just found my first caterpillar yesterday (It's a tiger swallowtail I think, it's still at molt 1 or 2 so its a bit hard to tell) bird activity is a bit heavy at the moment, so it have it inside and am trying to get it on a diet of tulip tree leaves which they are supposed to be able to eat besides the more traditional cherry (I prefer to avoid cherry leaves it I cna help it whne im inside raising, as no matter how hard I try to keep the food fresh, it invariably starts to wilt to fast and the caterpillars keel over once they eat wilted leaves (cyanide poisoning, I suppose) I've got a small lemon tree in reserve as well if it likes that better.
Great species llist by the way, you've raised WAY more species than me I've done blacks of course, also one tiger (that one pupated the day after I found it, so the food issue never came up) a few monarchs and some mourning cloaks (These were the fist ones I raised and I still have a soft spot for the species) Oh and one Polymepheus moths (I found it as a cocoon in colledge and up until it actually emerged I assumed I was going to see a Luna moth). I also tried to raise a few giant skippers back then but those dissapeared (they chaged color like I hears they were supposed to do before pupation so I assumed they were not going to move around any more and left the top off the container I had them in (to fit a few sticks in in case they needed a pupation support turns out they weren't done moving crawled out of the container and dissapeared.

[ottawagardener]

I have had them a couple times and I find their populations are low enough that I only have a couple parsley/dill etc... plants devoured and as my parsley self seeds at high rates, this is not missed. Unfortunately, I have never seen a cocoon. I am not sure if they are eaten by predators or what happens. Haven't seen any yet this year and I have plenty of umbels around.

[blueadzuki]

May 28, 2010 18:24:41 GMT -5 ottawagardener said:

I have had them a couple times and I find their populations are low enough that I only have a couple parsley/dill etc... plants devoured and as my parsley self seeds at high rates, this is not missed. Unfortunately, I have never seen a cocoon. I am not sure if they are eaten by predators or what happens. Haven't seen any yet this year and I have plenty of umbels around.

Butterflies don't make cocoons (okay a few do but not this one), they make chrysalides. Basically once the caterpillar reaches its fifth instar/molt (for this species) that's the one where it turns that bright green color with the black stripes and the orange polkadots) it will find an out of the way spot to pupate. Unlike "hang pupators" like monarchs (who find a flat surface and hang upside down from it to pupate) swallowtails are "side pupators" this means that they will spin a little button of silk into which they will instert thier backside. they will also spin a "girdle" a band of silk that will go around roughly thier middle and allows them to sort of lean back at rougly a 45 degree angle (some other butterflies actuall adhere themselve flush agains the surface) After a while (usally about another 24 hours thier skin will spilt and the chrysalis will emerge this looks a little like a bumpy lump (see link for pictures)(www.ben.edu/faculty/cheinz/Pics/pupa.jpg Note:despite tag caterpillar in picture is 4th instar not 5th ) and may be green or brown (brown ususally comes near the end of the season, and indicates a pupa that is planning to overwinter and emerge in the spring) a few weeks later (or in the case of a winterer a few months) the pupa turns transparent and the adult butterfly emerges.
Your half right in your guess as to why youve never seen the pupas, after the third molt or so, swallowtail caterpillars get big enough and colorful enough to be pretty obvios and there are birds who don't mind the taste of anise/dill/parsely etc. so a lot of them are eaten. but the other reason is that a lot of black and anises don't stay on the plant to pupate. They need a fairly thick stem to set thier pad and girdle on and unless the plant has a good umbel they may have difficutly finding such a spot on the plant. The caterpillars therefore often move to a nearby surface that looks more inviting (whne I did them in my room a favorties spot was my desktop computers coax cable (or one year if I hadnt caught it, the back of the computer itself) add on the fact that the crysalis is flat green or brown (i.e. camoflauged) and you can easily miss it.

[mnjrutherford]

Ya know Karen, you've really got me thinking on this issue now. I need some sort of pest control. Not a lot of it, just a little specifically on my veg. We have 3 bee hives so I'm very conscientious of what might have a negative impact on them.

We like the monarchs and swallowtails that come around and would like to encourage them. Mike thinks we need to get some milk weed for the monarchs, but we have no clue what to do for the swallowtails.

Several people sent me packets of mixed flowers which I have planted. The bees love the Baby's breath. I hand pull the bad weeds out of this patch. I am hand squishing the bad bugs on the beans next to the "Wild Patch". But the corn, which is about 150' away, and the cabbages at 100' away, really need some help.

The corn patch is 8 rows, 100' long. The cabbages are 1 row, 35' long. The plan has been to use Bt for the worms on these veg. IF it would work against stink bugs and Japanese beetles, I would also use the Bt on the tomatoes and the blackberry bushes both of which are more than 200' from the wild patch.

Can I really build a harmony between the wild areas and the more controlled area? How can I do more to encourage butterflies in the places I would like them but discourage them where I don't? I really appreciate all advice.

By the by, I'm planning an herb and flower garden to start next year. If you can recommend some good butterfly plants (seeds are helpful too ya know! ) that would be fabulous.

Thanks for putting this forth Karen.

[ottawagardener]

I looked around but didn't see any chrysalides either but I do hope that they were just well camoflauged and I missed them.

Jo: I bet there are lots of plants that grow native in your area that are butterfly snacks. From what I've read about maintaining natural biodiversity and therefore helping to prevent plagues of pests is to be diverse: in habitat, plant organization, plant type and growth style, microclimate and so on. The more like a natural ecosystem, the less damage. This is a sweeping generalization of course but diversity breeding diversity pretty much distills down what the experts that I have read, from mainstream to alternative, say on the subject. This does not eliminate pest problems and may not be convenient for certain crop types, harvest methods etc...

Have you tried trap cropping for Japanese beetles. I've read some people have luck with wild grapes. They seem to like my cultivated grapes... better than my raspberry and roses which is not to say that they don't see these as midway to the grape snacks.

[galina]

Can't vote because I have never seen one. Apparently the Swallowtail butterfly (arising from parsley worms) is Britain's largest and also rarest butterfly. I'll be on the lookout.

Thanks for making me 'google' this.

[blueadzuki]

Actually, if you are in Britain, your swallowtail is the British subspecies of the Old World swallowtail, Papilio machaon brittanicus (unless you live on the south coast; then, on occasion, you may see examples of the Continental subspecies P.m.gorganus (brittanicus has more black on its wings))
Icidentally for a long time the rarest British butterfly was the aformetnioned Mourning Cloak (In Britain it's usally know as the Camberwell Beauty) it still would be, if someone had decided that, as there was no record of it breeding in Britain it presumably wasnt native to there (British sightings are now generally ascribed to errant Scandanavian examples that have gotten lost over the North Sea. still If you ever do see one plase let me know as I'm not sure I've ever seen a European example (the european ones are supposed to have white wing margins, instead of cream) the american version looks like this

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[galina]

blueadzuki

you know a lot more about butterflies than I do. What I have learned is summarised nicely on this BBC webpage:
www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfacts/factfiles/410.shtml

The actual butterfly looks more yellow than red on the various photos on the web. I will let you know when I see one and take a photo if possible.

[stevil]

In this part of Scandinavia (the west), the Camberwell Beauty is also rare and I've only once seen it (just a glimpse and it was gone). It occasional turns up in our area (there was a sighting yesterday), but is commoner in Sweden and SE Norway (Oslo area).

[blueadzuki]

Incidentally the caterpillar of a Mourning cloak (I'm going to stick with our name, its the one I'm used to) looks like this
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[peppereater]

MJ, butterfly gardening is one of my passions. You or I should start a seperate topic, but I'd be glad to provide you with some seed at season's end. Quickly, here are some suggestions:
Herbs, echinacea, dill, fennel, parsely, of course, goldenrod
Edibles, mustard, all cabbage family veggies, passionvine
Flowers, joe pie weed (eupatorium), obedient plant, zinnias, cosmos, butterfly weed (asclepius tuberosa), yarrow, thistle
just a quick list there, but some very good plants.
Let's get a new topic going soon, there's a lot to discuss about host plants, nectar plants, specific species, etc.

[mnjrutherford]

Excellent! Bees are our number one concern, but butterflies are a close second. Since you generally find one with the other...

We have a VERY short nectar flow season around here. We want to do the best we can to extend that time with flowers. The major nectar producing plants in the area are trees. I have no idea if this a "native" fact or if its human "lack of understanding". I mentioned getting a list of nectar plants put together and encouraging home owners to use them... The president of the bee club no less told me that it wouldn't work and don't waste my time...

I'll try to post a pic of my "wild" garden patch when the rain stops. I KNOW I have baby's breath in there, but the lupin is not blooming, zinnia is JUST starting, there is a poppy, 1 or 2 borage plants, the start of a bee balm, something weird is going on with the tomatillos. batchelor buttons, I THINK there is one cosmos... and several other plants that I just don't know what the heck they are, I just hope they aren't weeds I've allowed to go free out of ignorance.

I will be very grateful for additional seed for next years planting as well as advice for making hospitable garden areas for these wee work horses. Thanks! ;D

[plantsnobin]

Jo, I will work on getting a good list together, but my computer is about to crash. I will send you home with plenty of plants to get you started when you come in Sept.