W. WA soils (cont. from catalog disappointment)

[atash]

I hijacked it first because I wanted to address my own questions. Thanks, Atash, for the long explanation. I knew you would have a good one. My perspective was that Seattle is a difficult and unreliable area in which to grow food stuffs, but as you so ably point out, there are many other factors.
I do know folks in Oregon and Washington who grow ag items for profit and for many, this will be a profit free year - the weather has been too cool.

OK, now I understand. I thought you were commenting on the population density when things go bad and maybe there are riots, food shortages, and whatnot. That's the question (more often, comment) most folks have as regards those considerations.

But you were actually concerned about the suitability of the area for growing crops.

Oddly enough the area was net food self-sufficient until pretty late, about the 1970s, when many people exited Seattle and Tacoma for the suburbs and wiped out a lot of farmland in what I think is called the Maple Valley. Also there has been a lot of speculation in land for suburban housing, making farmland prohibitively expensive.

The biggest issue is actually the soil more than the weather. Generally our soils are not very fertile, and many of them are a heavy glacial till.

Aside from problems with the El Nino/La Nina oscillations, the climate here is actually fairly stable and equable compared to most of the country. The normally somewhat cool summers can limit options for hot-weather fruits and vegetables, but you can work around a lot of problems and have plenty of good foods to eat. One other problem is that the rainy springs and high incidence of fungal diseases are hard on some crops, including and especially many stone fruits. Also as mentioned I've given up on Raspberries due to root rots.

OTOH potatoes grow beautifully. Seed for many of the biennial Brassicas and Chenopodiums is grown here (and nowhere else in the country in many cases) because the winters are cold enough for vernalization but not cold enough to kill them. Most berries other than Raspberries perform superbly. Even Currents, which can be difficult or impossible in many other parts of the country. Cherries do great as long as you cover the trees in netting. There are a few specific Apricots that do well. Domesticated blackberries (as well as feral types and native dewberries) perform well.

Chestnuts, Walnuts, and Hazelnuts do well. Pecans are hard to ripen. Almonds are rare but some people have either early-ripening types, or peach-almond hybrids (kind of a cheat...).

The growing season varies but it is generally over 200 days per year and in some places exceeds 260. Things that like a long coolish growing season, like quinoa, perform well. A lot of Andean crops do well though many of them have issues other than climate that need to be corrected.

My farm is south of the southernmost extent of the glaciers during the Ice Age, so it does not have the glacial till, but instead a rich humusy silt.

One thing I would like to do when I have the time and the money is to scout MORE land overseas. South America. Then get projects going in both hemispheres.

[castanea]

Actually I was also thinking about the potential problems associated with trying to grow crops and feed people in our difficult economic future, whatever the details of that future might be.

It's interesting to know that the area was food self sufficient until the recent past. Today however, many farmers, wherever they might live, seem to be focused on corn, soybeans and wheat, and have forgotten how to grow the less popular items that might grow better in their area, just as some Africans have moved from sorghum to corn.

I have only one acre here in Sacramento County, but am looking for land in the midwest. When things become more difficult, urban California is probably not going to be one of the better places to be, no matter how many crops can be grown here. Water usage is going to become more and more problematical.

[atash]

Today however, many farmers, wherever they might live, seem to be focused on corn, soybeans and wheat, and have forgotten how to grow the less popular items that might grow better in their area

Right, the big globalized commodity crops. Unfortunately the banks, the food processors, and to a certain degree (somewhat depending on where you are) the government tend to dictate to the farmers what they are allowed to grow.

Because I'm selling seeds to backyard growers and small farmers, that's not (yet) my problem though I do worry about increasing regulation.

I personally will grow, and eat, a lot of off-the-wall crops that most people would not consider (though I think there are a few folks here who are even more so than I am!), if there seem to be a good reason to do so. For example, I had some Chaya in my soup the other day, because I grow a few bushes just to have it to sell starts to other people who live in warmer climates than I do (but it grows remarkably well outside the tropics during the growing season. Not particularly touchy for a tropical plant).

I have only one acre here in Sacramento County, but am looking for land in the midwest. When things become more difficult, urban California is probably not going to be one of the better places to be, no matter how many crops can be grown here. Water usage is going to become more and more problematical

That's probably a lot compared to the cost of land that close to a city. I dunno how far out Sacramento County extends but I do know that Sacramento sprawls. I lived there when I was in my mid-teens and I realize it sprawls even more now.

Until you move you might consider growing Chaya and/or Moringa. Chaya is the more productive but it will go dormant during drought without irrigation. Moringa and especially African Moringa might not, especially once established. Indian Moringa has edible leaves, flowers, pods, and seeds. The preferred type is PKM1, which has less fibrous pods than non-selected varieties, and bitter-free seeds. It also bears pods precociously. Moringas need to be kept short to keep the leaves and pods easy to harvest.

Chaya is possibly the most productive green you could grow on your property. It would not take many plants to keep your family supplied with greens. Both Moringa and Chaya are highly nutritious. Just not enough calories to live on.

[castanea]

I am always looking for new plants to grow. I had not even heard of chaya. Thank you for that. I grew 5 or 6 different types of moringa this year including PKM1. Unfortunately none of them liked the soil where they were growing. Most died at less than a foot tall. Right now only 2 plants are still alive and they are anemic. The 2 that are still living are rarer types, not m. oleifera.

What I am fascinated with is mirabilis expansa but cannot get seeds. One of our Belgian members did get seeds from South America www.cipotato.org/artc/mauka.asp but they have not had seeds in stock for some time.

alanbishop.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=others&thread=2074&page=1

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Oct 14, 2010 1:03:51 GMT -5 atash said:

Unfortunately the banks, the food processors, and to a certain degree (somewhat depending on where you are) the government tend to dictate to the farmers what they are allowed to grow.

And the buyers... Oh my gosh!!! I had a guy call the other day and he wanted crates of butternut squash: All the same size. All the same shape. Same number of squash per crate. I snickered at him. He didn't have the slightest clue what a land-race is or why I am unwilling to grow the kind of squash he wants.

I think I'll donate a couple hundred packets of Astronomy Domini sweet corn to the local food banks this winter.

[castanea]

Oct 14, 2010 19:23:51 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Oct 14, 2010 1:03:51 GMT -5 atash said:

Unfortunately the banks, the food processors, and to a certain degree (somewhat depending on where you are) the government tend to dictate to the farmers what they are allowed to grow.

And the buyers... Oh my gosh!!! I had a guy call the other day and he wanted crates of butternut squash: All the same size. All the same shape. Same number of squash per crate. I snickered at him. He didn't have the slightest clue what a land-race is or why I am unwilling to grow the kind of squash he wants.

I think I'll donate a couple hundred packets of Astronomy Domini sweet corn to the local food banks this winter.

The USA may have the most agriculturally illiterate populace in the world.

[atash]

I grew 5 or 6 different types of moringa this year including PKM1. Unfortunately none of them liked the soil where they were growing. Most died at less than a foot tall. Right now only 2 plants are still alive and they are anemic.

For some reason they are hard to get started. I am not sure why. Susceptibility to disease might be an issue. They seem to need to be humid and quite warm as seedlings, and are prone to dying of disease if temperature stressed when young.

If it's any consolation, they seem to get tougher as they get older.

Curious you should lose M. oleifera and not what are presumably African species (there are 3 species in India and the rest are from Africa). I should think the M. oleifera would be the easiest species, as it extends past the tropics in habitat, and tolerates rain and humidity well. For me it is healthier than M. stenopetalum and grows much faster.

Chaya is much easier to get started. Also easier to grow and easier to harvest. Not as temperamental about watering or temperature changes.

I would guess that unlike Moringa it will need some summer irrigation, but not particularly much. It goes dormant during drought, and it's used to dry winter and spring, wetter summer and autumn, as is true of many plants from wet-dry tropical climates.

It tolerates mild frosts. Heavy frosts will kill it to the ground but it suckers readily. It should be fine near Sacramento.

People call it "tree spinach" but it is drier than spinach. Reminds me more of Kale than Spinach. BE AWARE THAT THE LEAVES CONTAIN SMALL AMOUNTS OF CYANOGLYCOSIDE AND MUST BE COOKED AT LEAST A MINUTE (actually, it takes more than a minute to cook them tender) to be rendered harmless. They're not as potent as the leaves of some of its relations but I suggest not making salads out of them.

There are 4 different leaf forms. The form I have has glossy, deeply-incised leaves. It could pass for an ornamental foliage plant. They bloom almost continuously, but I suspect that they are self-incompatible. I think mine only has female blossoms.

I'd not heard of that Mirabilis before, but I'm not surprised someone should exploit one as a food crop. I'll have to look it up.

I just received some seeds for another South American crop, Chenopodium pallidicaule. It's grown at a higher elevation than quinoa, but is not fully domesticated and there are some issues with harvesting it that need to be worked out. The rather small seeds are ground into a meal and added to other foods, including hot milk as a comfort-food similar in concept to hot chocolate. It has a similar nutritional profile to quinoa but even higher ratio of protein.

[castanea]

Of the two moringa I have left, the strongest is M. stenopetalum. I suspect that humidity, or lack thereof, may be a factor in the demise of others, while stenopetalum doesn't mind a dry climate. My soil really is bad though.

I got my seed from these folks:

www.ilovemoringa.com/MoringaStenopetala.html