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Post by bunkie on Mar 20, 2011 14:15:43 GMT -5
great questions jo. we're looking into this ourselves and have just as many questions! ;D
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 20, 2011 14:37:04 GMT -5
Yep, I go after it in fits and starts. The best info I've gotten is right here though.
If I talk to "energy professionals" or family members, I get the same "you can't do that" garbage that Synergy was speaking of in the "Seeds for Japan" thread. It's so defeating to hear but boy, when you can overcome and prove them wrong... it's SO healing!
I've not applied myself with huge dedication though. Mainly due to funding. But with the insurance from the fire, here's my chance!
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 20, 2011 16:34:13 GMT -5
Another relatively low cost high impact solar project is to install skylights which can eliminate the need to use indoor lighting during the day.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 20, 2011 16:41:15 GMT -5
OK, so I think I've found THE website that will help bring this all together: www.mdpub.com/index.htmlI read the whole page and I (yep, me, wood working/electrical doofus herself) understood it! Here is a basic parts list I put together from the reading: solar cells, tabbed (3" x 6" OR 6" x 6") eBay plywood pegboard plexiglass solder pen fine rosin solder clear silicon cauld 3.3 amp Schottky diode (31DQ03) eBay fiberglass insulation (tiny amount) polarized jones plug (each end is hermaphrodite as protection against short circuiting) screws You'll have to look at the bottom of the page to see a picture of the plug. The only 2 really exotic items are the cells and the diode. He priced out the stuff he had to purchase specifically for the project and it came to just over $100 but this was also a few years ago. Even so, not a bad deal. My thought is this: 1. Purchase and put together one of these solar panel kits: www.spheralsolar.com/categories/Solar-Panel-Kits/2. With the knowledge and experience gained, build enough panels to power the house. 3. Build a back up wind turbine. Now, this takes us to the next issues which are: 1. What other components will be needed to create a fully functional solar system? Marine or Deep Cycle batteries (how do I determine how many and of what size?) Power Inverter (how do I determine how many and of what size?) What am I missing? 2. How do these all get put together? I'm also thinking that if we can make this work, it would be a beautiful thing to have a panel party with the neighbors. Everyone contributes sufficient materials to produce as many panels as they want. Set up work stations and assembly line produce a hundred or so all at one time. Then go around and set up everybody's house. What a hiccup to the system to suddenly lose a half dozen customers every month or so. What a thrill to go through a hurricane/flood/earthquake and NOT loose power! |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 20, 2011 17:26:34 GMT -5
1. What other components will be needed to create a fully functional solar system? Marine or Deep Cycle batteries (how do I determine how many and of what size?) Power Inverter (how do I determine how many and of what size?) What am I missing? 2. How do these all get put together? I would also want to have: A charge controller to keep the batteries from overcharging. Diverting chargers are really nice if you have an alternate use for excess electricity such as water or space heating. A backup generator to charge the batteries if there is no sun for a week, and to run electric stoves, and heavy motor based loads like power tools, washing machines, etc. There are two strategies for stand alone power inverters... Get a huge one to power the whole house or use a smaller one for each circuit. The smaller one for each circuit allows you to build a system gradually. As a first approximation size your system by looking at your current power bill to see how many KW hours you use in a month. A 125 watt panel times 8 hours of full sun per day = 1 kilowatt-hour per day. (I use approximately 30 KW-hr per day in my non-optimized home with an electric stove.) Conservation and reducing the need for electricity in the first place is the most cost effective thing that can be done when contemplating setting up a stand alone power system. |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 22, 2011 22:25:15 GMT -5
I found out today that I can indeed have a grid tie in system. Good for now at least, don't have to deal with batteries. That will have to change in the future, but getting things started now will make it easier to convert in the future. I also know that I need a system of at least 1,300 kw. I am going to try for a 1,500 kw system which would guarantee that I can cover our personal use most of the year. We would get a small amount for the extra produced, but that isn’t what concerns me at the moment. I found a great calculator to determine what we need: 1. You need to know how many kWh you use per month, from that figure out how many per day. 2. You need to find out what your areas "solar insolation" is. Google "solar insulation maps". 3. Calculate: X kWh per day / solar insolation = Y kw (for me, 5 kWh / 5 = 1 kWh) 4. Next, you need to determine the "inefficiency index". Calculate: Y kW x 1.3 = Z kilowatts (for me, 1 kW x 1.3 = 1,300 kilowatts needed) For an off grid system, you should figure about $11 - $12 per watt INSTALLED. Grid tied systems run about $7 - $8 INSTALLED. But that's just it, that's where you can save the big bucks, but the cells and build your own panels. What's more, I'm thinking that if we can figure this out for ourselves, we can help our neighbors get set up as well. If you got several families together and had stations for doing the various steps and everyone pitched in for materials to get bulk savings, you could get several houses turned solar within a week. The single step requiring the most time being allowing the silicon caulk to completely cure before closing up your panel. My plan is this, I'm going to purchase this: www.spheralsolar.com/products/The-DIY-Solar-Panel-Kit%3A-80W-Tabbed-Cells.htmlIt's a panel kit and it should be big enough to run our well pump and our water softener. We'd set it up off grid, but it would give us the experience we need to make the bigger panels for the house. There is a red ribbon at the top of that page, it's a 20 page, downloadable booklet. Download and read it. The author asks folks not to distribute or print it out. I am respecting the request. |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 23, 2011 18:31:29 GMT -5
Okey dokey, I'm starting to get some prices in for the "basic" stuff that is also scroungeable for lots of us. I wanted to get an idea what it would cost buying everything. These are all prices as of today at our local Lowe's. 3/4" plywood - $17 pegboard #15494 - $10.75 wood strips, 1/2" x 11/16" x 8" #3487 - $5.24 silicon caulk, white, exterior #180781 - $6 Valspar severe weather flat latex, white #145390 - $18.98 metal tape, 2.5" x 150' #237724 - $16 plexiglass 36" x 48" #239982 - $63 I nearly wet myself over the price of the plexiglass. However, the manufacturer's web address is www.sabic-ip.com. I'll be checking it out not only for better pricing but for larger sheets if possible. The store clerk also told me that I could check out a place called "TotalPlastics.com". If I were still in the Bay Area, I would go to Tap Plastics. I've also been looking around at the cost of solar cells and it looks like I can get untabbed in large lots, enough to do our 1400 watt installation for just under $500. I haven't checked out diodes yet and I want to track down some more data on micro inverters. As I understand it, if we put a micro inverter on each panel, the power transmission efficiency will be significantly increased and it will also increase a particular safety issue which I can't tell you about because all I can remember is that "it's safer". Additionally, I need to "absorb" more data relative to the issue of "just why the heck do I care how many volts a panel is or has?" Is anybody with me here? |
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Post by ottawagardener on Mar 24, 2011 7:06:13 GMT -5
Following this thread with interst. Ijust don't have much to add.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 24, 2011 7:37:18 GMT -5
Well... it is POSSIBLE/PROBABLE I made a mistake in my calculations. So, let me go over this, step by step, and see if I can figure this out: 1. solar.coolerplanet.com/Articles/solar-calculator.aspx According to this calculator, my Solar Radiance - 5.06kWh/sqm/day Avg Monthly Usage - 1775 kWh/month System Size Needed - 14.56 kW  ok... so this is a DUH moment in my life.... I've made a zillion point 8 calculations to figure out the 14.56 kW number which I've had, calculated for me already.... to figure out that I needed far less than I needed... Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?  Well, at least I now KNOW where I went wrong, right? This isn't going to stop me from going forward mind you, but it is going to facilitate getting me to the proper end point. I'm thinking a nap or planting something, like potatoes, is really going to do me some good. ;D |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 24, 2011 9:12:13 GMT -5
Avg Monthly Usage - 1775 kWh/month That seems way high... I'm wondering if any of the following are in use and could be switched to non electrical? Electric furnace Electric space heaters Central air conditioning Dehumidifier Electric water heater Arc Welder Electric oven Electric Clothes dryer Water bed |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 24, 2011 11:15:05 GMT -5
NO - Not running
Electric furnace
Electric space heaters
Dehumidifier
Arc Welder
Water bed
YES - Running, can't really be converted at this point except for clothes dryer and we're working on it.
Central air conditioning
Electric water heater
Electric oven
Electric Clothes dryer
Our lowest month used 1,137 kWh and our highest used 2,273 kWh during the past 12 months. I agree that it seems awfully high. On the other hand, we had not one but two very VERY comprehensive energy audits last year and the AC was replaced because of the audits and the auditor told us that the whole house was at peak efficiency, fully insulated, etc.
I cook and bake a LOT. Part of why we could not be considered an "angular" family by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 24, 2011 11:16:13 GMT -5
P.S. At this point, I'm feeling a little bit defeated by the numbers...
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Post by grunt on Mar 24, 2011 11:59:21 GMT -5
Jo: Simplify the math = you use 1775 KWH/month = 59.5 KWH/day.
I worked on isolated lightstations, off the grid, for just under 30 years, and the generators we had were 10 KW, which supplied electricity for two houses and the lightstation. If you need 15 KW you are a power pig, which I know you aren't. Your 14.56 KW would almost supply your monthly usage every hour.
Your getting too close to your numbers to see what you are doing = like forest and trees, no?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 24, 2011 13:00:00 GMT -5
Our lowest month used 1,137 kWh and our highest used 2,273 kWh during the past 12 months. I agree that it seems awfully high. On the other hand, we had not one but two very VERY comprehensive energy audits last year and the AC was replaced because of the audits and the auditor told us that the whole house was at peak efficiency, fully insulated, etc. Which was the high month? Which was the low month? That's an astounding amount of electricity... In the high month that works out to like 3200 watts continuous. That's a heck of a lot of electricity. Where is it going? There aught to be lots of heat associated with that much electricity. Where is the heat showing up? Baking every day isn't going to use that much, so I have to start asking other questions like: Do you live in a mansion? Are you heating a swimming pool? Is the power company sending you the bill for the wrong address? (Read your meter to make sure the numbers match what's on the bill.) Are your neighbors surreptitiously hooked into your power? Is your meter broken? Does your hot water heater have a continuous leak? (Feel the outgoing pipe when you haven't used the hot water for a few hours. Is it scalding hot 3 feet away from the tank?) Is the hot water hooked up to the irrigation lines? Are you pumping water for irrigation? Is a vent in the AC broken causing most of the conditioned air to be blown outside? |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Mar 24, 2011 13:08:22 GMT -5
Precisely Dan!!! I've really had my nose to this for several days trying to figure out just how far I can go with $5,000.
So, "riddle me this Batman..." - How many 200 watt 12V panels would I need for that much power? How many 300 watt 12V panels would I need for that much power?
I think that if I have that number, I can move off my lovely spotted toadstool and do something other than stare into space with a blank look on my face....
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