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Post by blueadzuki on Dec 17, 2010 12:16:33 GMT -5
Hi all,
well, I once again got my hands on a few fresh yuzu's so in a few days to a week (depending on whne I get around to using the fruit itself) I will once again embark on an attempt to grow a tree from the pits for the third time. It actually isn't that the trees are all that hard to germinate (theyre about the same as any other citrus) its that the places I can usually obtain them usually get thier fruit direct from Japan, which means the Yuzu's may be irradiated before they get to me. This doen't apparently rended the seeds sterile (well, not all of them) but it does tend to mean that an awful lot of the ones that do grow come up messed up, with traits that make them non viable as growing trees (albino, no ability to grow leaves, etc) I know that is is possible (and probably easier) to simply buy a yuzu tree, but I have a stubborn need to try and do things the hard way. Plus I want to make sure that I have a tree that is not grafted as that will actually make my own life easier in this case, unlike most citruses,grafted Yuzu trees are often grafted to make the trees grow taller (to facilitate orchard harvest), pure yuzu tend to be pretty short and small; they actually can grow and fruit quite confortably in a big 5 gallon pot, which is probably how I'm going to do it, In a big pot I can put outside in the spring and summer and take in over the winter, maybe (see below)
If I can get a lot of trees I may do some experiments to see if I need to bring the trees in at all. Yuzu is already one of the most cold tolerant citrus on earth, capable of handling prolonged temps down to -10C (It's basically beaten only by a pure bred Ichang papaeda which can take down to -15(but which doesn't taste all that good) and the trifoliate orange, which can take down to -20C (but whose fruits taste so bad that you really can't eat them as is (though I've heard of them being used to make marmalade)) which means in theory that I could just plant them in the ground outside if I was willing to wrap them in burlap over the winter (like people around me do with thier fig trees) but maybe I'll be lucky and find one that's really cold tolerant. And if I don't I'll still have an inside one to enjoy.
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Post by atash on Dec 17, 2010 12:52:33 GMT -5
I think the problem with Ichangs is that some of them have little or no pulp. I think they've traditionally been used for their aromatic peel.
Some Ichangs do have pulp, and unlike Trifoliate Oranges they aren't bitter. As a result their hybrids are palatable (if sour) and aromatic unlike hybrids of Trifoliate Orange. They tend to get used as substitutes for limes, to which they actually have some genetic affinities despite the differential in coldhardiness. Same Papeda group.
Yuzu is reputedly an Ichang hybrid itself (some claim C. reticulata is the other ancestor), but reputedly comes true from seed. I'm trying to find the big Citrus website that has detailed ancestries on it but I'm not finding it. I probably have it bookmarked somewhere.
Both Poncirus trifoliata and Citrus ichangensis are pure species unlike most Citrus, and therefor tend to dominate their crosses. Attempts to breed hardy Citrus using Trifoliate orange have not done well, because there were not enough crosses done to isolate the coldhardiness traits without the baggage of dry bitter fruit.
Thomasville Citrangequats are supposed to be tolerable to eat aside from having a bit of a "bite" to them. Probably doesn't help that Kumquats (they are half Kumquat) are rather sour.
In fact it is hard to get sweet hardy Citrus, because Citrus don't seem to be particularly efficient at producing sugar. Probably because of their tropical/subtropical affinities even the hardy ones need warm temps for their biochemical processes to be very active.
For a truly coldhardy Citrus I would make use of the ability of the Trifoliate Orange to go deciduous. Just isolate the deciduous trait with a lot of back-crossing.
I have one coldhardy Citrus in my yard, a "Taichang Lemon", a hybrid between C. ichangensis and C. taiwanica. The latter is related to Japanese summer citrus and is a more-or-less stabilized hybrid between sour oranges and pomelos, that grows feral on Taiwan. The hybrid has lax almost weeping branches, and partially "double-jointed" leaves that it inherits from the Ichang. Taiwanicas are relatively coldhardy in their own right so the hybrid is one of the most cold-tolerant of anything that makes a passable lemon/lime substitute. No idea if it will actually ripen this far north.
They have small fruits the size and shape of a mandarin orange but yellow instead of orange, that taste like lemons but slightly sweet. They have some aromatic compounds from the Ichang and are supposed to make good ersatz Key Lime Pie.
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Post by castanea on Dec 17, 2010 13:47:22 GMT -5
Hi all, well, I once again got my hands on a few fresh yuzu's so in a few days to a week (depending on whne I get around to using the fruit itself) I will once again embark on an attempt to grow a tree from the pits for the third time. It actually isn't that the trees are all that hard to germinate (theyre about the same as any other citrus) its that the places I can usually obtain them usually get thier fruit direct from Japan, which means the Yuzu's may be irradiated before they get to me. This doen't apparently rended the seeds sterile (well, not all of them) but it does tend to mean that an awful lot of the ones that do grow come up messed up, with traits that make them non viable as growing trees (albino, no ability to grow leaves, etc) I know that is is possible (and probably easier) to simply buy a yuzu tree, but I have a stubborn need to try and do things the hard way. Plus I want to make sure that I have a tree that is not grafted as that will actually make my own life easier in this case, unlike most citruses,grafted Yuzu trees are often grafted to make the trees grow taller (to facilitate orchard harvest), pure yuzu tend to be pretty short and small; they actually can grow and fruit quite confortably in a big 5 gallon pot, which is probably how I'm going to do it, In a big pot I can put outside in the spring and summer and take in over the winter, maybe (see below) If I can get a lot of trees I may do some experiments to see if I need to bring the trees in at all. Yuzu is already one of the most cold tolerant citrus on earth, capable of handling prolonged temps down to -10C (It's basically beaten only by a pure bred Ichang papaeda which can take down to -15(but which doesn't taste all that good) and the trifoliate orange, which can take down to -20C (but whose fruits taste so bad that you really can't eat them as is (though I've heard of them being used to make marmalade)) which means in theory that I could just plant them in the ground outside if I was willing to wrap them in burlap over the winter (like people around me do with thier fig trees) but maybe I'll be lucky and find one that's really cold tolerant. And if I don't I'll still have an inside one to enjoy. I've grown them from US seed and have seen similar odd variability. They act like hybrids. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Dec 17, 2010 16:42:07 GMT -5
I think the problem with Ichangs is that some of them have little or no pulp. I think they've traditionally been used for their aromatic peel. Some Ichangs do have pulp, and unlike Trifoliate Oranges they aren't bitter. As a result their hybrids are palatable (if sour) and aromatic unlike hybrids of Trifoliate Orange. They tend to get used as substitutes for limes, to which they actually have some genetic affinities despite the differential in coldhardiness. Same Papeda group. Yuzu is reputedly an Ichang hybrid itself (some claim C. reticulata is the other ancestor), but reputedly comes true from seed. I'm trying to find the big Citrus website that has detailed ancestries on it but I'm not finding it. I probably have it bookmarked somewhere. Both Poncirus trifoliata and Citrus ichangensis are pure species unlike most Citrus, and therefor tend to dominate their crosses. Attempts to breed hardy Citrus using Trifoliate orange have not done well, because there were not enough crosses done to isolate the coldhardiness traits without the baggage of dry bitter fruit. Thomasville Citrangequats are supposed to be tolerable to eat aside from having a bit of a "bite" to them. Probably doesn't help that Kumquats (they are half Kumquat) are rather sour. In fact it is hard to get sweet hardy Citrus, because Citrus don't seem to be particularly efficient at producing sugar. Probably because of their tropical/subtropical affinities even the hardy ones need warm temps for their biochemical processes to be very active. For a truly coldhardy Citrus I would make use of the ability of the Trifoliate Orange to go deciduous. Just isolate the deciduous trait with a lot of back-crossing. I have one coldhardy Citrus in my yard, a "Taichang Lemon", a hybrid between C. ichangensis and C. taiwanica. The latter is related to Japanese summer citrus and is a more-or-less stabilized hybrid between sour oranges and pomelos, that grows feral on Taiwan. The hybrid has lax almost weeping branches, and partially "double-jointed" leaves that it inherits from the Ichang. Taiwanicas are relatively coldhardy in their own right so the hybrid is one of the most cold-tolerant of anything that makes a passable lemon/lime substitute. No idea if it will actually ripen this far north. They have small fruits the size and shape of a mandarin orange but yellow instead of orange, that taste like lemons but slightly sweet. They have some aromatic compounds from the Ichang and are supposed to make good ersatz Key Lime Pie. Funny you should mention Key limes, as that is likey another citrus I may do inside. Lord know I use enough of them! The iced tea blend that fuels me trough most of the day mon-fri (I don't like the taste of coffee, and any hot drink tends to make me sleepy again (which is why it's iced, even in winter) relys on the freshly squeezed juice of 1 key lime as a key ingrediant, so I am never without an abundance of leftover pits. I am, familar with the Taiching lemon, I actually contemplated getting one of those as well at one point but the things said about the taste of the fruits made me decied space was better spent on other things (It may be good for fake key lime pie, but it isn't all that well regarded for most other culinary purposes, its consider to taste a little flat. I actally have 1 lemon tree already, at least I think it's a lemon. It's parent was a really odd "lemon" I bought at a market where it was sitting on a pile of "normals" It's fruit was a very pale, fairly greenish shade of yellow (basically chartreuse) with an oddly resinous flavor that does not match up to any of the basic lemons (eureka, ponderosa, meyer etc.) I actually think it may have some citron genes, its peel is unusally thick for a lemon as well. I suppose the papeda is sort of like the Buddha's hand citron in the respect you mention, I have heard that fruits with some pulp and seeds exist, I've just never seen any! agreed that kumquats are rather sour though that really depends on which kumquat your are talking about. Round types are usally sweeter than the oval types. The "Golden Bean" types of Hong Kong are a little hard to place as to sweetness as they have little or no flesh. Oh and besides the lemon I have something on the order of 50 small wampee trees (I basically tossed all of the pits from my wampees into a pot on the patio and to my surprise most of them actually grew. It'd be nicer if I didnt turn out that I HATE the taste of wampee fruit! |
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Post by atash on Dec 17, 2010 19:38:38 GMT -5
Finally found the website I was looking for. This one has extensive and easy-to-understand information. It has Ichang Papedas listed under a different name than I know it as: Citrus cavaleriei Notice the photoes of Ichangs with pulp: users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#ichangensisAnd the "double-jointed" leaves--they have flattened petioles that look like leaflets. Those are characteristics of a number of the Papedas, including Limes and Kaffir Limes. Ichangs are very beautiful trees. Here's one of its close relations (probably ancestral) from the Khasi Hills of India (the "Khasi Papeda): users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#khasiYour C. juno is part of the same subgenus: users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#yuzuI'd heard you could grow them from seed but what Castanea says implies they're not really stabilized. I was more worried about bitter aftertaste, a characteristic of both parents. I doubt any worse than grapefruits though, and I don't mind grapefruits. (Hopefully they're not flat other than being bitter!) For something I can actually grow outside, a tolerable fault. Real limes are expensive, hard to find (usually substituted by green lemons, which do not taste like limes to me), and don't keep well for some reason. Probably getting old by the time they get to our markets. I'm still trying to get my hands on a Citrus glauca, the Australian Desert Lime, the world's only xeric Citrus. They're not coldhardy as long mistakenly believed. Someone a long time ago typed that they were "hardy to -15C" when apparently they intended to type "-5C". But they can stand mild frost and they're xeric and they're shrubby. You don't need a ladder to harvest the fruit. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Dec 17, 2010 20:59:13 GMT -5
I'm still trying to get my hands on a Citrus glauca, the Australian Desert Lime, the world's only xeric Citrus. They're not coldhardy as long mistakenly believed. Someone a long time ago typed that they were "hardy to -15C" when apparently they intended to type "-5C". But they can stand mild frost and they're xeric and they're shrubby. You don't need a ladder to harvest the fruit. Much luck to you. Speaking of Xerics, somewhere on my list (though really really low on it) is a custard apple relative I heard about once. Evidently it must be super xeric; as it's native habitat is the middle of the Atacama desert (it's in the part with the fog shadow). It basically survives by having no aboveground parts at all for most of its life; whne the fog gets heavy enough it briefly sends up woody shoots,flowers and fruits (and yes the fruit is edible) I'll get back to you with the species name, as soon as I remember where I put my copy of Fantastic Trees. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 25, 2018 16:06:27 GMT -5
Finally found the website I was looking for. This one has extensive and easy-to-understand information. It has Ichang Papedas listed under a different name than I know it as: Citrus cavaleriei Notice the photoes of Ichangs with pulp: users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#ichangensisAnd the "double-jointed" leaves--they have flattened petioles that look like leaflets. Those are characteristics of a number of the Papedas, including Limes and Kaffir Limes. Ichangs are very beautiful trees. Here's one of its close relations (probably ancestral) from the Khasi Hills of India (the "Khasi Papeda): users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#khasiYour C. juno is part of the same subgenus: users.kymp.net/citruspages/papedas.html#yuzuI'd heard you could grow them from seed but what Castanea says implies they're not really stabilized. I was more worried about bitter aftertaste, a characteristic of both parents. I doubt any worse than grapefruits though, and I don't mind grapefruits. (Hopefully they're not flat other than being bitter!) For something I can actually grow outside, a tolerable fault. Real limes are expensive, hard to find (usually substituted by green lemons, which do not taste like limes to me), and don't keep well for some reason. Probably getting old by the time they get to our markets. I'm still trying to get my hands on a Citrus glauca, the Australian Desert Lime, the world's only xeric Citrus. They're not coldhardy as long mistakenly believed. Someone a long time ago typed that they were "hardy to -15C" when apparently they intended to type "-5C". But they can stand mild frost and they're xeric and they're shrubby. You don't need a ladder to harvest the fruit. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 26, 2018 22:06:38 GMT -5
Trying again (don't ask me to figure out which "take" this is, I've tried several times a year)
The donor fruits alas are not juicy/pulpy (I have come to the conclusion that juicy yuzus are so rare it will be more or less a random luck of the draw, and my only recourse is to simply always have a space available for if another one drops into my lap) But they are unusually large (about the size of a tangerine, as opposed to the satsuma size that seems to be the norm). So assuming I get one whose genes are sufficiently non jiggled to be a functioning tree (i.e. not albino, develops leaves and a functional trunk etc.) I should hopefully something of value (that's one of the good things about most citrus seeds being clonal one can hope the fruit you get will match the fruit you got the seed from.)
I'm also playing around with sudachi fruit (that at least has juice)
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Post by walt on Jan 27, 2018 14:26:59 GMT -5
Blueadzuki I've read that key lime is the only citrus commonly grown commercially from seeds, And that they often start to bloom within a year. And they stay small. Sounds like something that could be worthwhile.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 27, 2018 15:10:58 GMT -5
Well, I certainly USE enough of them so I have plentiful seeds! But I have always balked on the idea on the grounds we have a cat, and key limes have very nasty thorns (though I suppose I could simply get into the habit of clipping the thorns off.)
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Post by steev on Jan 28, 2018 22:14:41 GMT -5
Why do you doubt your cat has enough sense to avoid thorns?
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 29, 2018 0:31:28 GMT -5
A few years ago, it would have been she runs so fast around the house she wouldn't have the stopping power. Now she is getting on in years and is a little unsteady so I'd be worried she'd stumble into it.
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Post by socal2warm on Jan 29, 2018 1:32:16 GMT -5
I have a yuzu tree. (well actually 4 or 5, but that's a little complicated to get into) Initially I saw that they carried them at La Crescenta Nursery. I came very close to buying one, but they were pretty expensive. Later, on a visit to a local nursery I saw that they had two Yuzu trees. I couldn't believe it! And into the ground it went. pictures: postimg.org/image/pkw800t07/postimg.org/image/9zt6s5h6v/I harvested seeds from the fruit and am now growing several small seedlings. Yuzu trees are apparently able to grow in the Seattle area unprotected. (although probably a good idea to wait until the plant is at least 2 feet tall before moving it out for the Winter) |
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Post by steev on Jan 29, 2018 1:39:16 GMT -5
A few years ago, it would have been she runs so fast around the house she wouldn't have the stopping power. Now she is getting on in years and is a little unsteady so I'd be worried she'd stumble into it. Understandible; I might also. My sympathies to your kittie; none of us are getting younger. |
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Post by philagardener on Jan 29, 2018 6:44:49 GMT -5
Great looking stock! Glad they are doing well for you! |
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